Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd
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Q4-2025 Earnings Call
AI Summary
Earnings Call on May 30, 2025
Record Revenue: Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders reported its highest-ever annual revenue at INR 11,431 crores for FY25.
Profitability: Profit before tax reached INR 3,109 crores, and profit after tax was INR 2,324.88 crores, with improved margins year-on-year.
Margin Guidance Reset: Despite recent high margins, management guided for a more normalized PBT margin of around 15% in the medium term, citing project life cycles and global benchmarks.
Order Book Potential: The company expects its order book to grow from INR 32,000 crores to over INR 1.25 lakh crores if upcoming submarine contracts are signed soon.
Revenue Growth Outlook: Annual revenue growth is now expected at 8–10%, lower than past 20%+ levels, due to timing of new orders and project ramp-up.
Large Provisions Taken: Substantial provisions (notably INR 532 crores) were made this year for potential losses on two contracts due to rising equipment costs.
Capacity Expansion: CapEx programs underway could double shipyard capacity over the next few years, positioning the company for larger future orders.
Diversification Efforts: The company is pursuing commercial and export orders and collaborating with thyssenkrupp for submarine technology transfer and potential exports.
The company reported strong EBITDA and PBT margins for FY25, but management emphasized that these are elevated due to late-stage, high-margin project deliveries. For the medium term, they guided for a normalized PBT margin of about 15%, aligning with global industry standards. Management cautioned investors not to extrapolate recent unusually high margins, attributing them to project cycles and specific contract stages.
Mazagon Dock has delivered over 20% annual revenue growth recently, but management now expects a more moderate 8–10% annual growth rate going forward. This is attributed to the timing of new large orders, especially submarines, which require considerable lead time for design and ramp-up before meaningful revenue contribution begins.
The company anticipates a major increase in its order book—potentially exceeding INR 1.25 lakh crores—if it secures new contracts for the P75 additional submarines and the P75I project. Management is optimistic about signing these within the next few months and notes further opportunities from upcoming Navy projects and commercial shipbuilding. However, order growth is subject to contract finalization and government decisions.
Significant provisions, especially INR 532 crores this year, were made for two contracts (Coast Guard and Denmark) due to increases in raw material and equipment costs following a global shipbuilding boom. These provisions are estimates under prudent accounting and will be reassessed quarterly, with the possibility of reversal or increase depending on actual outcomes.
Mazagon Dock is executing CapEx plans totaling around INR 4,000 crores, aiming to roughly double its capacity over the next 3–4 years. This includes expanded submarine construction and small shipbuilding facilities. Management does not expect to take on debt for these expansions in the near term, given current financial health.
Revenue recognition and profitability are closely tied to project life cycles. Major projects like the P17A frigates and P75 submarines will largely be delivered—and thus invoiced—over the next two years, with some guarantees and spare parts revenue extending to 2027–2030. New large submarine orders are expected to start contributing to revenue from FY28.
The shipyard is actively seeking to reduce reliance on Ministry of Defence contracts by increasing commercial and export orders. Notable steps include contracts for offshore vessels with ONGC and a European client, and a collaboration with thyssenkrupp for submarine technology, which could open export opportunities in Asia and South America.
Subcontracting and outsourcing costs have risen due to the need to execute many simultaneous projects, some outside the main yard. Management clarified that subcontracting is costlier than in-house execution, especially for smaller ships, and these costs are considered a fixed expenditure.
Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited earnings conference call hosted by Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Ms. Jyoti Gupta from Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, [ Rachitha ]. Good evening, everyone. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities, I welcome you to the Quarter 4 FY '25 earnings conference call with the management of Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited. We have with us Captain Jagmohan, Retired Chairman and Managing Director; Shri Biju George, Director Shipbuilding; Commander Vasudev Puranik, India Navy Retired, Director of Corporate Planning and Personnel; Shri Ruchir Agrawal, Director of Finance; and Commander Shailesh Bhalachandra Jamgaonkar, Indian Navy Retired, Director of Submarine and Heavy Engineering.
Without further ado, I would now request Captain Jagmohan sir to start with his opening comments, after which we can open the floor for questions and answers. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yes. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Quarter 4 and Annual Earnings Call for the period ended 31st March 2025. My name is Captain Jagmohan, Chairman and Managing Director, and I'm joined today by Director of Finance and CFO, Mr. Ruchir Agrawal; Director Shipbuilding, Mr. Biju George; Director, Corporate Planning and Personnel, Commander Vasudev Puranik; Director Submarine and Heavy Engineering, Commodore Shailesh Jamgaonkar.
Before we begin, I would like to remind everyone that today's discussion may include forward-looking statements as defined under applicable securities laws. These statements are based on our current expectations and projections about future events and financial trends and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those anticipated. We undertake no obligations to update these forward-looking statements, except as required by law. For a detailed discussion of these risks and uncertainties, please refer to our latest financial results, press release and regulatory filings available on the stock exchange website and our company website.
As a listed entity in India, we are committed to adhering to the highest standards of corporate governance and transparency as mandated by SEBI LODR Regulations 2015. This call is being conducted in compliance with these regulations, ensuring timely and equitable dissemination of information to all stakeholders.
We are pleased to share our financial and operational performance for the Quarter 4 and the fiscal year ended 31st March 2025. Despite a challenging macroeconomic environment, we maintained our market position and managed to deliver a strong performance with robust revenue growth and improved profitability on a year-on-year basis. During this call, we will provide an overview of our financial results, discuss key operational highlights and share our outlook for the upcoming period. Following this, we will open the floor for your questions. [Operator Instructions]
I would now like to hand over to Mr. Ruchir Agrawal, Director of Finance and CFO, who will walk you through the detailed financial performance.
Good afternoon. I'm Ruchir Agrawal, Director of Finance and CFO. And this year, we have recorded the highest revenue from operations, which is INR 11,431 crores. And the profit before tax is INR 3,109 crores. Earnings per share -- profit after tax is INR 2,324.88 crores with an earning of 57.63%. The operating profit is INR 1,940.43 crores, giving a percentage -- operating percentage of 16.97%. And PBT to revenue is 27.2% against 26%, which we reported last year, and the EBITDA margin of 28.24% against 26.93% reported for the year -- in last year, there is an increase of almost 2% on a year-to-year basis.
As far as this Quarter 4 is concerned, the revenue is on the upper side. It is INR 3,174 crores and against profit is INR 406 crores. It is on consolidated basis and earnings per share of INR 8.11. If we compare quarter-to-quarter, our EBITDA margin is 30.74% against 35.1%, which we reported in December quarter. The primary -- the reason for difference is the -- primary reason for difference is the provision we made in our books for the two contracts: one is for the supply of FPV to Coast Guard; and the other is the Denmark contract, where we -- management is of the view that there is a likelihood of incurring losses on those contracts.
So we have made -- as a prudent accounting policy, we have made the provision in our books. And this is in line with the accounting in Standard 37. And in the years -- next year on every quarter basis, we will be reviewing this liability. And based on our assessment, we will be charging it to profit and loss and reducing the provision what we have created in our books.
You may start now.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from JPMorgan.
Sir, my first question is on medium-term margin profile. Over the next 2, 3 years, what kind of EBITDA margin we should look at? Will the current level of EBITDA margins be maintained or perhaps be even increase from this level?
See, MDL expects margins and profitability to significantly improve over the next years as major orders materialize. We are expecting the P75 additional submarines and the P75I submarines contract to be signed in this financial year, and that is expected to increase our order book from the present INR 32,000 crores to more than INR 1.25 lakh crores. And these big ticket projects are the forte of MDL. And with these projects coming in, our margins and profitability are expected to significantly increase. The economies of scales of these large submarine projects and the efficiency initiatives under Shipyard 4.0 and digital transformation efforts is expected to enhance the overall profitability of the yard.
Sir, in past, the company has guided to PBT margin of 12% to 15% over the medium term versus 25%, 26% that we have been reporting. So now we should not work with the older guidance and assume the current level of 26%, 27% PBT margin to go up from here. Is that right understanding?
See, if you look worldwide, the shipbuilding margins are approximately 15%. So the guidance of 15% is accurate. But what we must understand, that in shipbuilding, revenues and profits are directly correlated to the order book and the life cycle stages of current projects. Each project stage, whether at an initial design or a mid-stage construction or final delivery, influences both the revenue recognition and the profitability significantly. So we cannot assume that since we have achieved 26% in 1 quarter and 1 year, we will be able to achieve the same across the board. So it is safe to have a guidance of approximately 15%.
And you can -- there are other shipyards who are listed. And you can look at their profit margins, and you will get -- you can gauge what is the general range. We have exceeded the general profit margin significantly. It is because the certain projects were at a late stage, where greater revenue recognition and profitability were accrued. And these projects were -- actually also obtained a significantly good margins. So -- but it is -- I would consider that it is prudent to have a margin of approximately 15%.
So sir, just trying to understand it clearly. Because earlier, you said that, obviously, your margins this year were quite high and it should keep on improving because of these large orders. But -- so that means that we should be looking at perhaps 30% or 31% PBT margin. But now your guidance is 15%. So what is the right number to work with?
You see -- with respect to Quarter 4, you'll see our Quarter 4 PBT is 12.8%, if you see. Of course, it is primarily because of the large provisions that we have made. But these high margins which you are seeing over the last 2, 3 quarters is because the large projects, 15 Bravo, have been delivered. And we have been able to accrue significant revenues and profits due to these. These -- however, we cannot keep this as a standard profit margin that a shipyard can get. So I would still consider that -- considering this 12%, yes, we will have an increase, but not considering the 26% what we have done over the years.
Okay, sir. Very clear. And sir, my second question is on revenue growth. Your revenue has been growing at 20% plus over the past couple of years. Can we expect the similar kind of revenue growth over the next 2, 3 years? Or will the revenue growth temporarily slow down as the execution of large contracts that you will win this year will take some time to pick up?
You have seen a growth of 20% on a year-to-year basis. But that was a time when we had a steady order book. Now since the order book for new P75 and P75I is a little bit delayed, so sometimes, we'll be going towards their design and finalization of the basic parameters for their execution. So it may not be correct to say that this 20% will be maintained. But by and large, we will see that the growth of the company is almost around 8% to 10% every year.
The next question is from the line of Anirudh Murarka from Continental.
Am I audible?
Yes.
Sir, my question was regarding Goa Shipyard Limited, one of the entities in which we -- our company is holding a substantial stake. So any plans to list it in the future?
That is -- actually, this is the decision of DIPAM because we are just a shareholder built on the government guidelines, and we are not making a decision for their listing or not. That will be decided by DIPAM and MOD what is their intention. And we will continue to be their shareholder until -- as per the vision of the MOD.
The government is a shareholder there. It's more than 51%. We hold 47%. The government holds 51%, and that's a decision that the government will take.
And sir, my second question is how much cash we are having on our books right now?
It will be to the tune of around INR 11,000 crores to INR 12,000 crores. But out of which, INR 6,000 crore is our margin and balance is on advances.
The next question is from the line of Raj Rishi from Dcpl.
Am I audible?
Yes, yes.
Yes. What's the capacity increase expected over the next 3 to 4 years?
See, we have already augmented our capacity from construction of 6 submarines to 11 submarines because we are preparing to take both the additional submarines of P75 and the 6 P75I, for which we have already set up the SSA facility, or the submarine section assembly workshop. So that is one area. And we have also taken up land from the port for taking up small ships, and we are also doing -- having major CapEx plans in that plant as well as in the Naval yard, which we have -- which we have a CapEx of approximately INR 4,000 crores. So we can, at the moment, I think, consider -- construct 10 major warships.simultaneously and 11 submarines.
Okay. So is it correct to say that like in 3 to 4 years, your capacity will be 3x of what it is today?
Once the two CapEx programs comes to fruition and then it becomes fully operational, definitely the capacities will go up. So now it is at the consultancy DPR stage. The [indiscernible] of what would be the capacity, how it will increase, we'll be able to gauge only after DPR comes because there are various technical considerations to finalize there. But definitely the capacity will increase at least by 2x.
And do you plan to take any debt for this CapEx?
So as of now, we are quite healthy and we do not expect, but it will be based on the economics of the proposal. We will see later.
Okay. And any plans for ship repair, sir?
Yes. We have a vertical in ship repairs. We already have a vertical in ship repairs that we are currently using our wet basin as well as dry dock. So we will be able to take ship repairs of larger ships, only when current docks are free. And in the long term, this CapEx which is there, once it gets operational, we'll be able to undertake repairs of larger ships.
And in addition, we are also taking submarine repairs, and that has contributed, I think, approximately INR 4,000 crores of revenue for us both in the MRLC as well as AIP plugs for the submarines, which are already in service with the Navy.
Okay. And sir, this shipbuilding super cycle which is going on globally, and this move away from China, et cetera, that should augur very well for companies like Mazagon Dock, right?
Yes, certainly. I think there is significant tailwinds that is going to further propel our growth both commercially, from the commercial shipbuilding as well as in the defense ship building because of the geopolitical situation. And as you have seen, both the Navy is likely to come out with the RFP for the 17 Bravo frigate shortly, which is a INR 70,000 crore project. And we are poised best to take on that, although it is going to come on our competitive bidding. But MDL with its proven capability and infrastructure and having demonstrated to have constructed and delivered these ships profitably, we are best placed to actually win these contracts.
In addition, the Navy is also coming with a INR 44,000 crore MCMV project. It's set at A1 stage. That's also likely -- the RFP is also likely in a few months from now. So there is a lot of orders in the pipeline, both for the defense as well as for the commercial shipbuilding sector.
Okay. Sir, some reports suggested that in the next 18 months to 24 months, there's a possibility that Mazagon Dock will get orders worth INR 2 lakh crores, INR 2.5 lakh crores. Any comments? Or it is poised to get...
See, it's like this. It depends upon whether this -- we are able to sign the 75 alpha -- 75AS and the 75I submarine contracts quickly. That adds up at least to INR 1 lakh crore. And if we win one of the shipbuilding contracts of, let's say, 17 Bravo and the MCMV contracts, we could at least theoretically reach those order book levels. We will see. But I'm confident that the submarine orders, we are likely to sign quickly, particularly the 75 additional submarines.
Would you expect it in by September, sir?
No, I expect that earlier because we have completed all the commercial negotiations with the Ministry of Defense and we are at actually the contract signing stage. So maybe it should be as early as next month, hopefully.
The next question is from the line of Amit Kumar, an individual investor.
Congrats on a decent set of numbers. Sir, the previous participant was asking that around submarine contracts, that you replied that there's a possibility we can get in the next 1 or 2 months. So what is the expected value of this contract, sir?
Yes, I expect it to be in the range of anywhere between INR 30,000 crores to INR 40,000 crores.
Okay. And the first participant asked that question about order book, and you replied that by the end of FY '26, our order book could be INR 1.25 lakh crores. Have I heard it right, sir?
Yes. That's provided we are able to sign the contracts for both the 75 additional submarines as well as the 75 India submarines project. Signing of the contracts for these two projects are crucial for us to achieve those order book figures.
So are these nuclear submarine or normal submarines?
No, conventional, conventional, not nuclear.
Okay. This 75 conventional submarines, which we are expecting in the next 1 or 2 months is INR 40,000 crores.
Yes, approximately, yes.
And there is another, you're saying, 75 commercial submarines and value -- what is the value for that commercial submarines? Will that be same amount?
We are at actually at negotiation stages with the Ministry of Defense. So it would not be appropriate for me to give any...
No issues. And given our huge order book, sir, would you please provide the revenue and EBITDA guidance for next maybe 3 or 4 financial years?
As the Director of Finance just brought out, we expect revenue growth of anywhere between 8% to 10%, and our PBT margins we expect around 15%.
But assuming a huge mammoth order book of around INR 1 lakh crores by end of FY, I think this kind of appears to be a very conservative, 8% to 10% top line growth, it appears to me.
Actually, it takes time. If you see, it will be increasing by the time the finalization of design, placement of order comes into picture. But it will depend upon how fast we are getting the orders from the ministry and how we are -- how far we are on the drawing board. So it will depend and it is our estimation that it will be around 10% to 15% and will increase as we progress in the project.
Okay. And I think I can see a very -- some provisions of INR 746 crores in the financial year. So could you please provide some more detailed insight? And is it onetime or whether it is going to come in next year also -- whether there is a probability of reversal of these provisions. Because it has impacted our EBITDA margin substantially.
Actually, in my opening remarks, I mentioned that other than INR 532 crores, which is we have made a provision this year, others are normal business provision. This INR 532 crores, we are making as an estimate for a loss which we may incur in our two of the contracts. One is for Coast Guard 21 ships and 6 ships of Denmark. This is based on our estimate as on date, and we will be reviewing this estimate every quarter. And based on our further judgment, we will be either reversing these provisions or there may be chances of increasing the provisions to if we find that the losses are increasing. But the major part of our provision we have already brought in the book, and we will see how to mitigate this in times to come. And as we will progress, this will be transferred from provision to profit and loss account and provision will come down accordingly.
And could you please provide some insight, what kind of the provision are like damages, some other losses?
We bid for this contract in 2022, '23. And the prices of the parts and components have increased significantly after those bids, maybe...
Because due to the global Global shipbuilding boom, number of equipment pricing has shot up from what was originally envisaged and factored into our costing. So -- but we have not yet ordered the entire package, entire equipment. So at the -- as of now for the equipment that has been ordered, there is a potential loss that has been provisioned, as DF, has already mentioned. But the real picture will emerge as we complete the procurement and the net impact can be computed at that stage. That, we will be doing in a quarterly manner and reporting.
Again, as of now, we have order book of...
Mr. Kumar, your voice is breaking. Can you please check?
Yes, ma'am?
You may please go ahead now.
Yes, I'll repeat my question. So sir, we have a order book of INR 32,000 crores. So how much of these orders are cost-plus contract or fixed price contracts? Because -- so that our EBITDA margins and bottom line remains profitable?
See, there in our investor presentation, actually the INR 32,260 crore order book, 15 Bravo, 17 Alpha, the P75 Kalvari Class Submarines, that put together comes to almost INR 20,000 crores. So approximately INR 20,000 crores is projects on fixed cost. And the rest are also fixed costs, but they are with the lesser margins. Whereas these -- so out of the INR 32,000 crores, approximately 2/3 are projects with reasonably high margins.
Okay. And sir, like during the recent contract with Pakistan, so -- and I think India should focus on more nuclear submarines. Sir, is there a possibility that the Defense of Ministry can think of preparation and ordering nuclear submarine to Mazagon or any other shipbuilder? Because defense is the #1 priority for India now?
Yes. You see that's a call that the Indian Navy and the Ministry of Defense will take. And in fact, you may have read that the nuclear submarines fall on the strategic submarine category. And I think the government has already placed an order, but that is getting done through the Navy to the shipbuilding center in Vizag and not with MDL.
So nuclear submarines are built by our company or it's a highly secretive operations, only by the Navy.
No, it's not with us at the moment, and we don't want to comment on something which is not with us.
The next question is from the line of Dipen Vakil from PhillipCapital.
Sir, I wanted one clarification regarding your subcontracting charges, which have increased exponentially as a percentage to sales in this quarter. So can you tell us as to what the subcontracting charges are? And what can be the kind of trend that we could be looking at going ahead?
So this is in contrast to what we call as -- actually, the subcontracting is what we normally define as when -- within our premises, the work is executed by another party. What we mean by outsourcing is when the work is executed in a remote location, not in our premises. So because we have around 27 ships to be built simultaneously, some of this work will have to be executed outside. Now at the same time, we are unable to give the entire ship outside. So these blocks have to be transported. Transportation cost is also involved. So therefore, there is an increase compared to executing the work within our premises.
Executing it outside turns out to be costlier than executing it inside. So the simultaneous demand of what we call as the asking rate of all this put together is demanding outsourcing, and that is why the cost is on the higher side.
Got it, sir. So if my understanding is correct, so subcontracting includes subcontracting as well as outsourcing, right?
Yes, that's correct.
One more thing you need to keep in mind is that for the larger ships, let's say, 15 Bravo and 17 Alpha, which are very, very high-value projects, then it makes sense for us to use our manpower, which is a little more expensive than subcontract manpower. So whereas the smaller projects like the export project and the 21 ships that we are doing for Coast Guard ships, it is better to do a subcontract model. And that is why since, of course, like what Director of Shipbuilding just said that since we have 27 ships and another 3 large ships that are presently on order, we have resorted to a little extensive subcontracting, and that's why the subcontracting costs are higher.
Next question is from the line of Deepak Krishnan from Kotak Institutional Equities.
I just wanted to check one thing on the next-generation Corvette order. Are we sort of -- are we active on the order? Are we L2? Or is that an order that we've sort of given a pass?
The bids were open and I think it's gone to GRSE and GSL and not to MDL.
The next question is from the line of Anirudh Murarka from Continental.
I just wanted to ask regarding that subcontracting, which I think the earlier participant has already -- the management has already answered. But my only thing is that in the subcontract, which we have made a very high expenditure. So is that -- in future, it is getting reversed or it is a fixed expenditure?
It's a fixed expenditure.
The next question is from the line of Sanjeev Zarbade from Antique Stock Broking.
Am I audible?
Yes. Please speak a little louder.
Yes. My question was regarding revenue booking. So if we are able to win the 2 large orders for submarine, FY '27 may not have much of order book -- revenue booking. But could FY '28, we might see up to 10% of revenue booking from these 2 orders?
FY '28 may be a little too distant away. But definitely for FY '26, we can confidently say, yes, we'll be 10% more.
No, no. Sir, I'm asking about the revenue contribution from the 2 large submarine orders.
Okay. So what is the question?
It will depend upon cost of production and this will depend upon how fast we are getting orders and their execution taking place. Because, first of all, after getting the orders, everything is only on the drying board. This is a proprietary period -- the design as well as for procurement. So the revenue recognition will come only after the start of production and that equipment goes on board.
But you are right, if that is the question, FY '28, definitely, at least the P75 additional submarines revenue will start to kick in.
So could it be around 10% of the order value or lesser than that?
Yes, you could say that because we are -- this P75AS project is a repeat of the Scorpene P75 project, which we have already delivered to the Navy. And we have already commenced some kind of a proprietary work. So I think confidently, we can say, yes, we will contribute -- this will contribute 10% of the order book of 75AS will -- contract value of 75AS will come in as a revenue for FY '28.
Okay. And sir, my next question was regarding the P17A, in which we have a pending order book of INR 13,493 crores. In what time frame is it executable, sir? And in what -- in terms of -- and also...
Yes, we are delivering the second ship the next month. And the third ship -- there are four ships. One has already been delivered. The second ship will be delivered next month. The third ship will be delivered maybe in the month of November. And the fourth ship will be the only one pending in the next financial year that also we expect to deliver by April '25 -- April '26.
And the guarantee liabilities associated with this project will extend up to 2027. So this -- what is balance shown will progressively get liquidated in that time frame.
So bulk of this INR 13,493 crores will get booked in terms of revenue in FY '26 and '27?
Correct.
In the next 2 years. That's right.
Two years, okay. And sir, we have -- although we have delivered P15B and P75, there is INR 3,700 crore order backlog and INR 2,700 crore order backlog in these two projects, which we have already delivered. So what is...
If you see P15 Bravo, we have [ 3,716 ] has been -- so there also, the liabilities are not yet over. So we keep that for future contingencies, if any. Because depending on the operational needs of the ship, we need to -- some expenditure has to be incurred. So 2 to 3 ships are still under guarantee.
And in addition, we have to deliver the base and depot spares to the Navy. That's also a significant amount. But those also, we expect a considerable amount to get this year and maybe the beginning of the first half of the next financial year.
Sir, this INR 3,700 crores, it will get booked in 1 or 2 years or this will be...
Which one? What, can you repeat?
This INR 3,700 crores...
I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Sanjeev, you are sounding very low, sir. Can you speak a bit louder?
Yes, yes. Sir, I wanted to know about the order pending in the 2 orders of Coast Guard and the Denmark order. How much is the outstanding value over there, sir?
I think -- see, that delivery, I think, is in 2029, if I'm not wrong, the last ship gets delivered. So the revenue will be split up to FY 2029 -- actually, FY '30.
No, the order value for the two orders that you mentioned for which we have booked provisions, the Coast Guard and Denmark. What is the outstanding...
That will be -- put together around INR 3,500 crores.
Okay. And to be delivered over next 4 years, you're saying?
FY '30, '29, '30, yes.
The next question is from the line of [ Chinmay Gandre ] from Canara HSBC Life Insurance.
Sir, most of the questions has been answered. Just on the P75I. So what is the stage right now like we are discussing commercials, is what you mentioned. I just wanted to check on that.
See, we -- our technical offer has been accepted by the Navy and MOD, and the commercial negotiations were just supposed to start then. After that, we have not heard yet. So we are in the early phases of the commercial negotiations for the project. Once the commercial negotiations conclude, then the contract will be signed.
And regarding the Scorpene class submarine, I mean, more or less, we thought that we should get it by last year itself. So I mean, so this operational delays or anything else should we read in that?
I mean it is -- finally, the contract is signed with the Ministry of Defense and the Government of India. So there are some procedural delays perhaps. So it's not entirely in MDL's hands, So -- but we expect that it will conclude shortly.
Sure. And lastly, I mean, in terms of the deliveries you mentioned about the P17A frigates, and these are pretty good margin orders, which also kind of mentioned. So I mean, broadly because we are going to deliver 3 of them or rather 2 of them in the coming fiscal year -- or rather FY '26, per se, I mean, then ideally, the PBT margin should be much better than the 15% guidance which were one-off a little bit.
Yes, we hope so. We would like to underpromise and overdeliver. So -- but we would like to keep the guidance at 15%, which is considered to be good for our shipyard. But we are hopeful that we will do better.
The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from JPMorgan.
Sir, just one question on the contract structure. So for your fixed price contract, do you get some kind of raw material escalation over the life of the execution of contract?
So we have to procure all the raw materials. So the raw material costing is a part of the overall project cost, and the shipyard does the procurement.
Yes. But I mean, obviously, these contracts can go on for 4, 5 years, right? So do you procure everything at the beginning itself? Or do you keep on procuring over 4, 5 years that is the question? Because...
We do the procurement and the negotiations with the supplier at the early stages. However, we ensure that the delivery is staggered so that the inventory is controlled and the costs are minimal to the shipyard.
So you lock in all the raw material costs at the beginning itself, in most cases?
Yes.
We'll take our next question from the line of [ Rahul Arvind Paradkar ], an individual investor.
I just wanted to ask, sir, about this delay in contract that we're considering. So are we also considered to add additional cost that we may incur so that we don't have to do any provisioning?
And the second question is that I see that most of these orders are coming either from MOD or Indian Navy. Are we also considering to go outside commercial and bid for those shipbuilding efforts?
Yes. First is, we are making efforts to diversify. And towards that, you will see that we have already got a significant amount of contracts from the offshore segment from ONGC. Our order book from ONGC is approximately INR 6,500 crores. And from commercial shipbuilding is the multipurpose vessel, which we have got from a European client, which is approximately INR 715 crores. So that is our attempts to diversify away from the single client of MOD.
With regard to -- what was the first part of the question?
It is not getting costed.
Yes. See, the preference fully covers all known risks.
So no, if the delay -- the signing of the contract gets delayed, we don't get any additional compensation for it.
We'll take our next question from the line of Gagan Thareja from ASK Investment Managers.
I hope I'm audible.
Yes, go ahead.
Sir, the first question pertains to your other expenses in project-related expenses, which are also fairly elevated on a year-on-year basis. Can you elaborate on why that is the case?
See, it is as -- probably it is depending upon the project life cycle. Since around 27 ships are at the early stages of construction, the entire procurement of material would have happened. So although I don't have the exact figures with me, but it is quite likely because it is at some -- it's also possible that some of the large orders of 17 Alpha, we must have procured the B&D spares, the base and depot spares, which comes to approximately 15% of the project cost. So that could be the reason for the increase in cost.
Okay. And is it possible for you to -- I mean, I'm referring to your -- the order book details mentioned in your presentation. Is it possible for you to give us broad delivery time lines of at least large-sized orders within the order book which are outstanding and also give an idea of broadly over what time can you fully invoice the current order book that you have?
See, 15 Bravo, as we just discussed, we intend to finish this balance INR 3,700 crores by FY '28 -- '27, '28. And the stealth frigates maybe by '29 because there'll be a small portion, but the majority we will intend, we will complete by '27 and maybe a little portion of the base and depots spares and the guarantee liabilities will be there. The Coast Guard projects and the multipurpose vessels, we will complete by FY '30, FY '29, '30, we'll complete. The P75 Kalvari, INR 2,400 crores, we should be able to complete maybe by FY -- majority by FY '26 and maybe first half of FY '27. The MRLC we should be able to complete maybe FY '27 -- mid- FY '27. The ONGC projects also, we expect to complete the majority of it by end of FY '27. The AIP project will take some time because some of the deliverables from DRDO is expected to be a little delayed. And anyhow it's a 42-month contract. So that's it.
Great. I understand that deliveries, the time lines might extend in '28 and '29. But would it be a reasonable surmise that a large portion of the order -- outstanding order book can be invoiced over the next 2 years? Some parts may extend beyond the next 2 years but largely...
Out of the INR 32,000 crore, maybe almost INR 24,000 crores next 2 years.
Okay. So INR 24,000 crores can be. And you generally have a sort of arrangement on turnover targets with the MOD. Have they been finalized for FY '26? And can you therefore convey it to us?
Yes. We have finalized it, but I'm not sure whether it is -- can be given to public. So there are figures both on top line and bottom line and other parameters, including R&D expenditure. I'm not sure whether we can make it public.
That is currently under discussion. We'll be able to...
Because you disclosed it in your annual report, at least the turnover bit, if I...
It is under discussion for the current solution.
All right. All right, sir. And in the past, you have indicated that on the Kalvari class submarine, there were some cost escalations for which you got compensation from the Navy for at least 3 of the submarines and 1 or 2 were pending, I think, INR 140 crores of perhaps provisions needed to be written back. Is it still the case? Or -- and do you expect to book it in the coming 2 quarters?
See, we have made provisions for liquidated damages of the submarines. And I think we have got -- it has come back to us for, I think, 4 submarines. We expect that -- there was only the first boat that the LD has not been reversed, which we expect that this financial year we should be able to reverse it. But that, of course, is a decision that MOD will take. But we anticipate that we will be getting the liquidate damages reversed for at least 1 submarine this financial year.
Was anything booked in Q4 from this or no?
No, no, not for these. That we've already pushed in the last financial year or the year before that.
Okay. And I think there was also an indication, at least in the past calls that as the projects come closer towards final delivery, there is a reassessment of your D448 liabilities. And if you are able to deliver on time or before time, you could actually incur cost savings. Is that potentially the case with some of the deliveries due for next year? And therefore, do you plan to benefit from that?
What I can tell you is what has happened in the recent past. All the 4 15 Bravo destroyers were delivered ahead of schedule and the shipyard has benefited because of the early deliveries.
Right, sir. The final question from my side, the master ship repair agreement that you have with, I think, the U.S. Navy. Since signing, I mean, do you foresee any commercial contribution starting from that in the near future? Or is it still some distance away?
Yes, yes. So we are still one of the contenders. But the issue is the vessels that are coming for repairs, some of them are large and will not fit into our current infrastructure. So we will participate that signed agreement only for vessels which can be accommodated within our premises. So a couple of offers which had come, we couldn't participate because of this.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Raj Rishi from Dcpl.
Any plans for a tie-up with a Korean shipyard or something? Because some news reports suggest that some tie-ups are the annual with Indian shipyards?
See, the Ministry of Shipping is trying to promote shipbuilding within the country, and it's actually much needed. And they are planning to have 4 large clusters by 2030 and operational by 2035. And the Ministry of shipping is looking at large shipyards like us to tie up with some major shipyards, global shipyards. We are at the very, very early stages of examining this, but we will keep our options open wherever we are presented with a good business opportunity.
And the previous person was asking about this master ship agreement you have with the U.S. And the answer was that you could not accommodate the -- because it was much larger than what you can accommodate. Do you expect any business on this trend in the future?
See, this is a large U.S. fleet, which is based out of Singapore serving the Indian Ocean region. So most of these vessels are large, there is a draft limitation also in our premises. So that is why that we are unable to accommodate. So it's only a very small subset of the entire fleet which can come here. And when those things go for repair, that is the time where we'll have the opportunity to participate. That's what I mentioned. So right now, I don't see anything in the immediate future.
And sir, what's the export potential business for MDL in the next 1 or 2 years?
Right now, we already have an order by [ CMD for 6 vessels, INR 715 crores ]. If everything goes on well, there is an optional clause also in that where they will order 4 more ships. So -- but that will depend on how we are able to deliver these ships in time and within the contractor costs. So that is a call which we have to take later. The potential -- no, potential is there for export orders. These are all cargo ships which completely fit into our infrastructure.
And sir, your collaborator for P75, I think thyssenkrupp, was talking about making India a hub for submarines. So you expect MDL also to benefit?
Yes, of course. This -- our collaboration with them is for the P75I project for which a significant amount of transfer of technology and indigenization, there will be more than 60% of indigenous content in this summary. That's higher than what we have done for the Scorpene project.
Okay. Your voice is breaking. Hello?
Please give me a moment, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected. The line of the management has been disconnected.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have the management line reconnected. Over to you, sir.
Yes, please go ahead.
Mr. Raj Rishi, please go ahead with your question.
Yes, the question was thyssenkrupp has talked about making India a hub for submarines. And since they are your collaborator, how do you stand to benefit from this if it happens?
First, this is a part of the P75I project, and we will be constructing these 6 submarines for the Indian Navy in collaboration with thyssenkrupp. And the contours of the contract is that thyssenkrupp will significantly transfer technology in the design and construction of these conventional submarines. So the indigenous component will be high. So MDL will straightaway have a benefit on these contracts. Notwithstanding that, once we gain the know-how in the design and construction of these submarines, we will also benefit in both maintenance of these submarines, which are in service in the navies all over the world as well as thyssenkrupp has said that when they get export orders, particularly in Asia and South America, they will look at constructing it in MDL for their global orders. So there will be a twofold benefit for MDL from this collaboration with TKMS.
It sounds very significant, sir, This -- whatever you have said right now.
Yes, it is.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Jyoti Gupta for closing comments.
Thank you. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities, I would like to thank the management of Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited for the call, and I also extend my gratitude to the participants for joining the call. With that, you may now close the call. Thank you, sir.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.