Humana AB

STO:HUM

Earnings Call Transcript

[Operator]

Good morning, and welcome to the Humana Q4 Report 2020. [Operator Instructions] Today, I am pleased to present CEO, Rasmus Nerman; and CFO, Noora Jayasekara. Please begin your meeting.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Thank you, and good morning. Welcome to this presentation of Humana's fourth quarter and full year of 2020. As always, I will start by giving you some of the financial and operational highlights. I will then hand over to our CFO, Noora, who will take us through the more details of the performance in the quarter as well as for the full year.Let's move on to the next and first slide, please. In summary, 2020 was an all-time high, both when it comes to challenges as well as achievements. Needless to say, the year was marked by COVID-19, a pandemic which has impacted all aspects of life and has been the focus for the group during the year. It does, however, give both energy and hope that vaccinations now are given to both clients and staff across our operations. 2020 was also a year in which we made significant progress in our digitalization efforts. And I am pleased to say that we already now start to see the benefits in the form of better stability and predictability. We did one acquisition during the year and one just after the quarter. Important is also that we enter '21 with new and fairly long collected bargaining agreements in Sweden. We avoided a conflict and we now have clear terms going forward.Next slide, please. Looking at the full year of 2020, financially we took a clear step in the right direction during the year and we are closing in on our medium-term financial targets. Worth highlighting during the year is the organic growth of 4.1%, the improvement in operating profit of 27% and also, the operating margin of 6%, up from 4.9%. We also had a strong operating cash flow and leverage well in line with our target.Next slide, please, for some more details on the fourth quarter. In the fourth quarter, our operating revenues increased to 2% to SEK 1.95 billion. The organic growth in the quarter was 3.1%, an improvement versus the 0.7% prior year. Our operating profit in the quarter was SEK 101 million, an improvement of 42% compared to the corresponding weak quarter of last year. The resulting operating margin was 5.2%, an increase compared to last year's 3.7%.In the quarter, we had a strong operating cash flow of SEK 296 million. This is an improvement versus last year and we have further reduced our net debt to SEK 3.5 billion. Our leverage was 4.3x, which is well in line with our financial target and down significantly compared to last year.Next slide, please. Moving over to quality. In the fourth quarter, the Humana quality index remained on the high 95% in spite of challenging times. The improvement seen over the year continues to be driven by improved customer satisfaction and fewer serious deviations. During the quarter, the group reported a total of 8 serious deviations, and we had no reported data incidents. The customer satisfaction was 85% compared to 82% prior year.Next slide, please. Needless to say, managing the pandemic remains our key focus and we continue to stand up well to the challenge with low transmission of the virus, good availability of protective equipment and no shortage of staff, despite the higher [ sickness ]. During the quarter, we also ran an extensive survey to both employees and clients to better understand how we can improve our crisis management work even further. The results are very encouraging with the absolute majority of both clients and employees being confident in the way Humana has handled the pandemic. Based on the many hundreds of comments, there are a few critical takeaways though. The compliance to routines cannot be taken for granted, but must be reinforced over time all the time. Preparedness for sudden and high increases in sick leave can be approved. And it is, of course, important to address mental health aspects for both clients and staff continuously. But again, overall, very good results.Next slide, please. Now let's start with our segment, starting with Personal Assistance. In Personal Assistance, we saw yet another stable quarter in the market, which is still fairly challenging with number of individuals entitled to assistance down 2% year-on-year. As mentioned before, we also acquired the RO Omsorg, a quality provider of personal assistance in tab, just north of Stockholm. During the quarter, we also invested in and implemented a new digital platform for our 10,000 Personal Assistant. The ambition is to move decisions and tasks closer to our customers, whilst also improving quality. We continue to be positive to Personal Assistance and the solid performance of 2020, coupled with the increase in reimbursement gives us confidence for 2021.Moving on to the next slide, please, in Individual & Family. In I&F, the performance was fairly strong during the quarter. We're also pleased to see a step towards stronger organic growth in the quarter and for the full year as a result of stable occupancy in all segments and the opening of 10 new units during the year, primarily within our LSS segment. Just after the quarter, we also acquired and welcomed Team J-son to Humana. Team J-son is a well reputed provider of specialized care in Jonkoping in Sweden with revenues of approximately SEK 90 million and 120 employees. It is the first acquisition in I&F since 2017 and a signal of confidence for the future. All in all, a strong quarter and year for I&F.Next slide, please. In our Elderly Care segment, the focus of course remains in handling the COVID-19 pandemic where safety for clients and staff is our top priority. In the light of this, it is, of course, very positive that vaccinations now have started for all our clients as well as for employees. We are encouraging as many as possible to vaccinate. The vaccine, though, will not solve all challenges, but it does provide a welcome return to more normal life for many elderly. Elderly Care is the segment which is the most affected by the pandemic and we still experience a lower demand and utilization in our elderly care homes. Finally, our focus on growth continues with intense preparations for 5 own managed openings during 2021. We are sticking to our original plan with one exception, we have -- where we have moved one opening to early Q3 instead of Q2.Next slide, please, and Finland. In Finland, we continue to see an underlying improvement. But as mentioned earlier, the pandemic has had a negative impact on both revenues and costs during the quarter and year. Our Individual & Family segments continue to be stable, but demand for open care services is negatively impacted. Also in the Elderly Care segment, we see a dampened demand as a consequence. We are pleased with the progress made during the full year, but Q4 needs some improvement and our work will and must continue.Next slide, please. In Norway, we continue to see a steady performance, positive development and strong organic growth. We also note the high interest in choosing Humana as service provider within personal assistance as well as disabled care. Finally, I'm also very pleased to see the improvements in Norway when it comes to financial and operational control, where we now have established a new normal, a very strong year in our Norwegian operations.With this said, I will now hand over to you, Noora.

[Noora Jayasekara, Chief Financial Officer]

Thank you, Rasmus. I will now give you a summary of the detailed performance of Humana in the fourth quarter 2020. Turning to Slide 12. From a financial perspective, our main objectives remain increasing predictability and stability. Our digitalization journey continues. For example, we are developing modern tools for documentation in collaboration with an external partner. In December, Humana repurchased shares in accordance with the authorization from the 2020 AGM. Financially, Humana had a good quarter with leverage in line with target, strong cash position and strong operating cash flow.Next slide, please. On Slide 13 in the presentation, you can see the operating revenue for the group. In the fourth quarter 2020, our operating revenue increased with 2% from last year's SEK 1,912 million to SEK 1,948 million this year. Full year revenue increased with 4% to SEK 7,797 million from SEK 7,467 million. Revenue is negatively impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic largely due to lower occupancy in Elderly Care in Sweden and Finland, and open are services in Finland. Also, the strength in Swedish krona has reduced revenue. Organic growth in the quarter was 3.1% compared to 0.7% last year. In the full year, organic growth was 4.1% compared to 2.0% last year. Growth in Individual & Family, Norway and Personal Assistance contribute to the improvement in the quarter and the full year.Next slide, please. Now moving to Slide 14 for more information on our results during the fourth quarter. Operating profit for the quarter came in at a strong SEK 101 million versus SEK 71 million last year. For the full year, operating profit increased to SEK 471 million from SEK 369 million. The margin increased from 3.7% last year to 5.2% in the fourth quarter. Margin for the full year was 6% compared to 4.9% last year. Stabilized occupancy in Individual & Family, increased efficiency in Norway and Personal Assistance, improvements in Finland and lower central costs, all contribute to the increase. A strong quarter, but the comparative quarter last year was also weak. The COVID-19 pandemic has affected both revenues and costs, lower occupancy, increased sickness absentees and increased use of protective equipment. Increased costs are partly offset by government subsidies. Thus the pandemic has had a marginally negative financial effect on the profitability for the group, both in the quarter and the full year.Next slide, please. On Slide 15 and the segment performance starting with Personal Assistance. Revenues for the fourth quarter are 5% to SEK 743 million compared to last year of SEK 707 million, with an organic growth of 3.8% versus 0.3% last year. Higher assistance allowance and increased number of hours drive the improvement, despite the negative impact from the pandemic. Operating profit for the quarter decreased to SEK 34 million, down from SEK 37 million last year. Also, the margin decreased somewhat to 4.5% versus 5.2% last year. The quarter was negatively impacted by slightly increased costs associated with the introduction of a new operational system and negative impact of COVID-19. All in all, a strong performance from Personal Assistance.Next slide, please. Now moving to Slide 16, with Individual & Family. Revenues for the quarter reached SEK 528 million compared to SEK 518 million last year. Organic growth in the quarter was 2.2%, up from last year's decline of 3.8%, a more stable occupancy in children and adolescents, increased occupancy in adults as well as new units drive the improvement. Some negative occupancy effects can be attributed to COVID 19. Operating profit came in at SEK 38 million versus SEK 27 million last year, and the margin increased to 7.1% compared to 5.1% last year. Increased utilization and improved steering are the key elements behind the improvement. Increased costs due to the pandemic are partly compensated by government subsidies. Individual & Family delivered a strong fourth quarter.Next slide, please. Elderly Care on Slide 17. Revenues grew in the quarter with 10% organically and reached SEK 157 million versus SEK 143 million last year. Driving the increase are both units under own management as well as contracts. In the fourth quarter, revenues also include retroactive price index increases, dampening the growth, we still see COVID-19 effects in weakened occupancy. Operating profit was SEK 4 million versus SEK 0 million last year, and the operating margin was 2.8% versus 0.3% last year. There are positive effects from the price index increases and retroactive COVID-19 compensations in the quarter. Handling the pandemic has been the main focus in Elderly Care.Next slide, please. Finland on Slide 18. Revenues for the fourth quarter in Finland came in at SEK 321 million compared to SEK 348 million last year, a decrease of 8% and organic decline of 4.1% versus growth of 10.7% last year. The decrease is due to exits from nonperforming outsourcing contracts and to negative utilization effects from the pandemic. Operating profit increased to SEK 10 million versus SEK 9 million last year, with a margin of 3.1% versus 2.7% last year. Main drivers are improvements in Elderly Care and good performance in Individual & Family care. There are also negative effects on topics from the pandemic. Although, the fourth quarter was not in line with expectations, small improvements can be seen.Next slide, please. Norway on Slide 19. Revenues decreased by 2% to SEK 193 million versus SEK 196 million last year. And the organic growth was 9.8% versus minus 0.7% last year. The growth development this quarter is due to new units and more customers. Operating profit increased to SEK 19 million from SEK 13 million last year, and the margin improved to 9.9% from 6.8% last year. High operational efficiency and more favorable revenue mix drive the improvement. We are again pleased with the stability in Norway.Next slide, please. Moving on to Slide 20 on central costs. Underlying central costs are slightly lower, improved performance in our Danish operations and lower other costs, partly due to COVID-19 are the main drivers.Next slide, please. On Slide 21, you can see our financial position. Interest-bearing debt decreased by SEK 201 million to SEK 3,511 million and leverage decreased to 4.3x from 5.4x last year, being now below our financial targets.Next slide, please. Operating cash flow for the quarter on Slide 22 amounted to SEK 296 million versus SEK 220 million last year, the increase due to higher profits and lower capital expenditure. The strong cash position allowed us to both repurchase shares and prepay external debt during the fourth quarter.Next slide, please. In the fourth quarter, Humana took a clear step in the direction of achieving our financial targets. Organic growth of 4.1%, operating margin at 6%, both at the highest levels as a listed company and the leverage below the target.With those words, back to you, Rasmus.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Thank you, Noora. Just trying to sum up 2020 in the fourth quarter, 2020 was obviously a challenging year for every marked by the pandemic. I think Humana as a company has stood up well to the test and we have also taken an important step forward as a company. All of this, of course, due to our fantastic staff. The fourth quarter was no exception with continuously good handling of COVID-19 and stable operational and financial performance.Going forward, we must continue to ensure the safety for our clients and the employees. The vaccines will help. We will also continue our focus on value creation and improving stability and predictability. The foundation that we made during 2020 makes us enter 2021 with confidence. We want to continue to drive organic growth, coupled with accretive acquisitions. And during 2021, we will also accelerate our efforts in the area of sustainability.With that said, we can now open up for questions. Thank you very much.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Kristofer Liljeberg from Carnegie.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

Some questions related to the Swedish Individual & Family business. Very nice to see this improved stability. And my first question is how confident you are in this being a new sustainable trend? I also wonder the margin improvement you had in Individual & Family in 2020, almost a percentage point or so. How much of this is underlying improvement? And how big were the positive impacts from different type of financial compensation related to the pandemic? And the reason I'm asking is just to make sure we have expectations right for next year or for this year?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Thank you, Kristofer. 2 pretty tricky questions, of course. Starting with the confidence. I mean Individual & Family has -- is and has for a long time been a very important area. By nature, it is a little bit more volatile than the other business areas there as we're talking almost 200 operations, many of them being very small and many of them being, of course, sensitivity to changes in utilization. And given the nature of the clients that we work with, there are volatility in utilization in I&F. That said, I have quite great confidence in what we are doing right now in I&F. My feeling is that we're working differently with the tasks at hand. We work at things more systematically. We permanently close things. So I'm pretty confident to what we're seeing in I&F. That said, there will always be an element of volatility in I&F. I think what we have seen during the year, which leads me to your second question, it's also an increased stability, not only in how we steer it from an operational perspective, but also the sophistication from the support functions, how we analyze deviations and how we can try to make forecasts for the future. So clearly, it's that in the right direction, although, there's still room for improvement.As Noora alluded to, the impact for the group in Q4 as well as the full year from the COVID-19 pandemic is actually negative. But it varies, of course. I would say I&F is perhaps the only business area, which has had a slightly positive impact financially, whereas it has been negative in Elderly Care in Finland, Personal Assistance in Norway particularly breakeven. It's not material, I would say, the maybe 5 million to 10 million tops. And -- but then it really depends on how we estimate the impact on revenues as well. We've had -- we've seen -- especially during the beginning of pandemic, we saw a negative pressure on utilization in parts of the operation, especially, the open care services that we also see in Finland. So it's not material, Kristofer.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

Okay. So you would say still most of the margin improvement is an underlying trend?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Yes.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

If I take 10 million effect, that will be kind of a 0.5 percentage point on the margin?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Yes. About -- yes, the absolute majority of the improvement that we’re seeing during the year is also driven, what I alluded to in my words. But first of all, we see more stability in our utilizations in the Youth segment. We've also seen towards the end of the year, an increase in utilization in an adult [ NSS ]. And that is partly driven to the fact that we have opened roughly 15 new units over the past 18 months, and they are now slowly becoming such a mature or up and running, and that makes a big difference, of course.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

And how would you characterize the I&F market in Sweden? Is this only more an internal improvements? Or do you also see better markets than a few years ago?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

No. I would say the market hasn't changed that much. I think we have been worse than the market in periods. But this time, I think we're performing better than the market. I would say the market is fairly stable.

[Operator]

The next question comes from Karl-Johan Bonnevier from DNB Markets.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

Yes. From me as well, congratulations on managing a stable operation in this strange world we have for the moment with COVID-19 and all these extra challenges. To continue on Kristofer's question, if you -- have now opened 18 new -- 15 new units in the last 18 months in I&F. How does the pipeline look? Do you still have that kind of growth pipeline in the book, so to say? Or...

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

We have quite high-growth ambition for 2021 as well, primarily within the adult and LSS segment. You know that we come from a couple of years, unfortunately, where we have wanted to focus on efficiency and stability and actually improving the operating margin. Hopefully, now we can put additional focus on organic growth with the first sign now in the fourth quarter. I think we have the solid pipeline. Hopefully, we will be able to expand that pipeline going forward. If we are supposed to achieve the organic growth target of 5%, I&F, of course, must deliver.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

Exactly. No, that sounds encouraging. And looking at the challenges you will have during this year of ramping up the Elderly Care units. Obviously, it's a massive undertaking you are taking on now. What can you do to, say, mitigate the short-term financial impact of it? And then also, at the same time, hopefully, drive these units to its full occupancy, say, quicker than the general market seems to be allowing for the moment.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

As you say, it's a massive undertaking. It's unlike anything we have ever done before, opening up 4 new timely units, 320 beds in a very short time span. I mean, obviously, we need to look at the situation in each and every one of the geographies where we're opening. I mean we've looked at the pipeline for a year. We've looked at the COVID with the impact on utilization, et cetera. Our decision is still to go ahead with the original plan with one exception of postponing one opening a couple of months to the beginning of Q3. What we can do to minimize cost is, of course, to be efficient in marketing, we're really efficient in rolling out vaccines, but also the way we open and, I mean, cautiously open floor after floor, not to have over costs in terms of staff, et cetera. I think in some of these openings, we have very good relationships, well, we have good relationships with the municipalities, now the opening. But in some of the openings, there are also fundamentals that will allow for a good opening, for instance, in [ Coronaria Hoiva ], we have -- it's a hybrid contract where we have a utilization guarantee already starting from day 1 in the -- when the units were open in Engenho. We hope to have a kick start following the fact that the municipality is closing down 1 or 2 units. So I mean, it's a massive undertaking, but our decision is still to stick to the original plan despite COVID.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

And you still have managed to secure the staffing you need for doing a safe opening.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

I mean we're currently in that process. But last year, alone we received 97,000 job applications. So we are fairly confident in our ability to recruit.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

Excellent. On the Personal Assistance side, you alluded to the new labor bargaining agreement. And then obviously, you have this nice increase in the list price, if you are looking at this year. How do you see the balance between those 2?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Well, it's obviously the best balance that we've seen for 6 or 7 years now. However, the new collective bargaining agreement contains a number of components that -- or each and every one of them drives cost. I mean, there are changes to do over time. There are changes to on call, the change in the pension age, et cetera. But even with that, it is certainly the best balance we've seen for a couple of years. Our rough estimate is that if you add all of this together, we're looking at a cost increase for salaries of roughly 3.2%. And you know the reimbursement is 3.5%. So I mean, obviously, we -- our ambition is to expand the margin somewhat come '21.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

Excellent. And finally for me, on Finland, have you managed to get Coronaria Hoiva towards breakeven now? Or where are you on -- if you look at that vertical so it's compared to your old operation in Finland?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

I mean if you look at the totality of Coronaria Hoiva, I would say that they are breakeven and even slightly positive. I mean the good challenge in Finland as a whole, similar to Sweden is the Elderly Care segment, of course, where our utilization, very much similar to Sweden is below what we are used to, and that obviously hits our margins.

[Karl-Johan Bonnevier]

Excellent. One final, final. I noticed that you didn't come with a dividend decision. Have you -- have the Board switched around looking at share buyback as being the main capital allocation kind of tool if you have excess resources rather than dividend? Or is there anything else behind that?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

No. I mean, dividend is still part of a target that we have. So actually do dividends of 30%. But for the reasons of the pandemic still being only -- over us, it's still a high uncertainty. We felt that for this year, 2020, it wouldn't be appropriate or good for Humana to do a dividend. We have repurchased own shares instead in order to increase value for shareholders, but it also gives us a bit more security as we maintain an asset, of course.

[Operator]

The next question comes from the line of Victor Forssell from ABG.

[Victor Forssell, Analyst]

And congratulations on a stable 2020. I have a few questions about the Norwegian market and your performance and opportunities in that. Firstly, on the overall performance this year and what you're highlighting this quarter is a revenue mix supporting margins and profitability. Could you please elaborate a bit on that revenue mix? And if those margins that you saw during the full year, let's say, are a bit too supported by the current mix that you think will normalize in 2021?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

I mean the -- it's nice word revenue mix, et cetera. What we actually are doing is growing pretty fast in segments where the margins are slightly higher, which for us is Personal Assistance as well as disabled care housing. Going forward, that is also where we want to continue to grow, and that's currently where we see growth. So we -- absolutely. I think these margins that we see in 2020 are sustainable.

[Victor Forssell, Analyst]

And just a follow-up on that. Where do you see the current Personal Assistance margins compared to your Swedish operations at the moment?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

In Norway, they are slightly higher, but it's quite a different operating model, not to be compared to the Swedish ones.

[Victor Forssell, Analyst]

Absolutely. Then also on the -- I mean, overall market, where are you feeling that you are strengthening your positions? Would you say that it's in BPA and also disabled care and also the pipeline you have for capacity increases and so forth in the coming years?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

No, definitely. I mean, 80% of our growth or 85% of our growth comes from BPA and disabled care. That said, we still have growth prospects in the adult institutional care segment as well, we simply need to be a bit more selective on where we open also family home and outpatient care. It's a relatively strong operation in Humana, Norway, but it's also an area where we're looking into growth. We have no plans right now to expand into new segments. There are just plenty to do in the segments in which we are.

[Victor Forssell, Analyst]

All right. And just lastly, on the municipality side in Norway as well. How are the -- I mean, if at all, changing their behavior towards private actors in these various segments? Also, I mean, how has the freedom of choice regulations changed perhaps any behavior in terms of using your services and how the overall market has reacted to these changes?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Victor, hasn't been similar to Sweden a couple of years ago. There's a lot of noise, but there's not really much happening. I think there are segments in Norway -- in the Norwegian market that are not attractive for private providers, such as elderly care, et cetera. There is also a bit of the attractivity of the used institutional care is not what it was 4 or 5 years ago. But in disabled care and also personal assistance, I would say, the tendency is actually the opposite where you actually roll out freedom of choice, not to the pace that we would like nor the clients themselves. But it's -- I mean, actually, there hasn't been any changes during the year and nothing that we can foresee in '21 either.

[Operator]

The next question comes from the line of Kristofer Liljeberg from Carnegie.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

A few follow-up questions. First, in Finland, could you just remind us a little bit about the sales bit between the various segments? And I don't know if it's possible to quantify how big the impact was from the pandemic. I think it would be helpful as a bit difficult to understand how much underlying improvements you have continued to deliver there. Then, yes, the bookkeeping question, the shares that were acquired have -- they haven't been canceled right? And also, yes, to make sure I heard you correctly. You talked about margin improvements 2021. Was that for Elderly Care despite all the openings or for the group?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

Okay. Let's take them one by one. No, the shares have not been canceled, Kristofer. No, when you talk about margin improvement for 2021, I'm not sure what you're referring to there?

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

I think you said when discussing all the openings that you still expect the margin to improve a little bit, but I might misunderstood...

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

In Elderly Care?

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

Yes.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

I mean, let's put it this way. Our ambition, subject to COVID, of course, the ambition for '21 is to improve profitability in absolute terms, but it's not going to be by much. Obviously, the openings of 5 units are going to cost a lot in the short term. But the ambition is to come in stronger in '21 compared to '20, given those opening, but it's not going to be a magnitude change.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

Okay. But that feels -- okay for Elderly Care, you mean, despite all the...

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

For Swedish Elderly Care. For Swedish Elderly Care. In Finland, I mean, we do have to simplify a lot. I mean, let's say, 40% of our Finnish operations is housing services, which is primarily elderly care, and then 60% is what we call individual Family Care Services, which is both institutional care as well as the Family on an outpatient care, where we have an impact in Finland is in the Open Care segment, where we have thousands of clients literally where many have decided to pause the services. And also, in some instances, the municipality due to restrictions in Finland have decided to pause services. We have managed to mitigate quite a lot of that by going digital. We do provide the services digitally rather than physically. But of course, all services cannot be performed over teams or whatever solutions you have.In the Elderly Care segment, very much similar to Sweden. I mean, we used to having an occupancy north of 95% or that's what is, where one to be currently is just below '19 has been for the year. And that obviously stops a lot of the -- hopes or forecasted improvement. We need to increase utilization, both in Open Care services as well as in the Elderly Care segment in Finland. I would say those 2 combined represent maybe 60% of the Finnish operations.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

So in total, what do you think the pandemic impact on earnings in Finland in 2020?

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

It is a difficult question to answer, Kristofer, because since you have the direct impact, which is negative in Finland. So costs exceeding any reimbursement. But also you have the revenue impact, I would say, looking at the year conservatively, SEK 5 million to SEK 10 million. That will be the guess.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] We now have no further questions. So I will pass back for any closing comments.

[Rasmus Nerman, CEO & President]

No additional comments from our side. Thank you all for listening in, and thank you all for your question, and have a fantastic day. Thank you, and bye.

[Operator]

Thank you for attending. You may now disconnect your lines.