Ovzon AB (publ)

STO:OVZON

Earnings Call Transcript

[Operator]

Hello, and welcome to today's webcast with Ovzon, where CEO, Per Noren; and CEO, Viktor Bremer, will present the report for the first quarter of 2025. [Operator Instructions]

And with that said, I hand over the word to you, Per.

[Per Noren, executive]

Thank you, Ludwig, and good afternoon and good morning, and warmly welcome, everyone, to our Q1 report for 2025. I'm here with our Interim CFO, Viktor Bremer.

[Viktor Bremer, executive]

Hello, everyone.

[Per Noren, executive]

Okay. So before we start the presentation, I would like to comment on 3 things specifically. First of all, the geopolitical pressure and turmoil has further increased, of course, in the past few months, which probably no one has escaped. This brings a lot of uncertainty to the world, obviously. But one thing is for sure, the need for resilient and high-performing mobile satellite communication continues to increase.

Secondly, Ovzon's financial performance has continued to improve during the quarter because of a very strong finish to 2024. We have the third consecutive quarter Q3, Q4 '24 and Q1 2025 with positive EBITDA. The EBITDA was SEK 18 million this quarter versus minus SEK 18 in the first quarter of 2024. And we had positive operating cash flow of SEK 66 million.

The revenue growth year-over-year from Q1 '24 to Q1 '25 is 38%. So, we think we have a very, very strong quarter behind us. But the third thing, I think, is important to understand before we dwell into the numbers and the reporting is that timing of deals, dealing with government procurement and decision processes can take time and also the decision by the customers to decide when they want delivery of the service and the terminals in our case can also vary, which means that it can have an effect on a quarter-to-quarterly basis. It's just a general thing when you work in this industry.

So what we do with that is we invest and we have invested and we'll continue to invest in both relationships, building business cases and education of the customers -- current customers and the new customers we're working with. And the last thing I'll just say is that 3 years ago, the company had 90-plus percent of its revenue base from the United States of America, from customers there. We have today a very well-balanced revenue base, about 60% from Sweden and Europe, and about 40% from the United States of America. And some of those contracts are also in Swedish krona and not U.S. dollars, which you'll see has a positive effect given that the krona has strengthened its position versus the U.S. dollar. So overall, I think before we go in deeper into the presentation, a solid quarter, the third consecutive quarter with positive EBITDA and growth in the quarter with a positive operating cash flow.

We'll go into more details now. First of all, again, an introduction to Ovzon. Most of you probably know the company fairly well by now. We are a leading provider of integrated satellite communication solutions with the most advanced capability to drive performance, meaning bandwidth and data throughput mobility, meaning you can bring it with you anywhere, any place, anytime, and resiliency, meaning we can guarantee uptime and connectivity for the customers that use it. That's our mantra; performance, mobility, resiliency. We call it the Ovzon Coefficient because there are actually things you need to do in order to have both performance, mobility, resiliency. And that goes into choices of technology and choices of how we design networks and how we deliver the service to customers.

We are in a niche market. We are not the consumer market, satellite connectivity provider. We are really here for those organizations and customers that need guaranteed connectivity for their critical missions, whether there's no infrastructure or destroyed infrastructure or they need the backup to where the infrastructure might be vulnerable. So we're very, very targeted. We're very -- almost like snipers in that approach. We work very closely with customers, partners and end users across Sweden, United States, Europe, and we also see opportunities in Asia Pacific and other places.

Our core markets are defense, both military and civil defense, national security and public safety. The defense customers we have are the majority of our revenues today. We have invested over -- around SEK 2.4 billion in our new technology programs that would be our first own -- proprietary owned satellite, Ovzon 3, our Ovzon On-Board-Processor and our Ovzon mobile satellite terminals. You can also see that the trend, as I spoke about in the introduction, is that quarter-by-quarter, we are improving the revenue base. And since we are a services business and the majority of the revenues are in services, they are repeatable and they span over years at this point, and we're now on a much higher level than we have been before.

Next slide, please. Satellite communications has been nice to have. It's been used by specialized organizations. But the more we see the trend in geopolitical pressures and situations such as Russia's full invasion of Ukraine or in the Gaza Strip or in other places, the more communication has become an essential part of the architecture of how you actually both protect and connect countries and regions of the world. Cyber and secure communication is essential. For those of you in Sweden, when we talk about this, you know that the Swedish version of BankID was down yesterday. We don't know the full effect of that, but we all see it around us. So the drive towards security and resiliency is very, very high.

Digitization is, of course, another thing. With digitization comes the need for communication and secure communication, where satellite communication actually provides the most advanced ability to do that. Most of our defense customers are talking about the digitization of defense. Digitization then requires communication again. So, you cannot kind of turn around and say, "Oh, I don't need communication. I'm just going to digitize or automate or use AI. You absolutely need the last mile of being able to utilize digitization and AI and cloud is that you have a communication pipe that is strong enough and guaranteed enough. So, we see that the trend there continues.

And last but not least, we see more and more of environmental impact on our society and societies around the world. And at such occasions, it's very, very important that you have communications. You can have a fast and efficient and effective way of doing rescue missions. And most often when things happen like wildfires or land slides or whatever or earthquakes, you have no fundamental infrastructure. You have to use the space infrastructure, meaning satellite communications for it. So, I think all of those 4 things drive a continued drive and need for satellite communications.

Now as I said, it takes time. You have to educate, you have to show, you have to tell and you have to build business cases and use cases for your customers. But I can tell you that the world and specifically in Europe, the focus is very, very hard, -- high and hard drive towards these kind of capabilities and solutions that we provide. Again, we are a niche provider. We are not it all be all for everyone. We are very, very, very, very advanced in what we do for those that needs that advancement. And therefore, we provide premium value. We provide premium solutions, and we do it at a premium price, and it's worth taking the time to win the right customers and the right deals in the right regions for the right purpose.

Next, please. This is our value proposition. And I don't have the slide this time around for what the difference is between low-earth orbit satellite, mid-earth orbit satellites and geostationary satellites. But in essence, if you have a geostationary satellite, which Ovzon operates in that part of space, you have -- and you do it in a certain band that we do in the Ku-band. We have a very, very advanced way of building and designing networks if you look at 12:00. And therefore, we can -- and we have steerable antennas and beams on our satellites, which means we can concentrate the energy of the satellite and the beam to smaller areas, which means you have higher throughput and higher bandwidth. We're very, very good at that, very strong at that and geostationary satellites provides that advantage, I would say, versus low-earth orbit satellites that circles closer to the surface of earth, but you cannot guarantee. It's when the satellite is over you in orbit that you can actually get connectivity.

For our customers, guaranteed performance, mobility and resilience is a thing. So, geostationary is a perfect choice for us. The only way to get connectivity is for you to have a satellite terminal that can connect within seconds. We provide that. We provide the smallest, most advanced with several -- with dual modems in most of our terminals, which means that we can switch on and off and we can connect in different ways that others can't. Our competitors do not have this. They choose other third-party providers of terminals, while we develop, design and secure that we have the smallest and most high-performance and resilient mobile satellite terminals that connect to our networks within maximum a minute. And of course, we don't own any teleport if you look at 3:00, but we partner with a few selected partners that actually are the ones that provide that capability, and we embed ourselves there and we connect then the signal to fiber and ensure that we have the highest resiliency and performance for that as well.

And then last but not least, both out in the field as well as virtually and as well as in our network operations infrastructure, we have dedicated 24/7 customer support and service that have both been part of designing the networks, understand our terminals, understand where signals come in and can continue to drive uptime. We hold ourselves accountable to 100%, but things can happen, and that's what we do better than anyone else. So, we have an integrated solution that no one else has.

Next slide, please. This is just a way of trying to describe where satellite communications is going and where Ovzon is going with that. Now with the Ovzon 3 satellite in space, we have the ability to do multi-domain operation. We can connect stationary, on the move, equipment, personnel and headquarters for total mission control basically, whether it's on the ground, in the air or on the water, whether it's manned or unmanned, we have both the terminal capability, the design of the network capability and our solution capability to actually connect all aspects of this. This has been one of the dream scenarios for defense, national security and public safety organizations for years. And it's first now that Ovzon, and we're in the leading edge of this can offer this. So, this is called multi-domain operations or you connect all aspects of your operations at the same time. Very, very unique and advanced.

Next slide, please. Competitively, I would say that this is then going to try to -- it's a summary really of what I've said initially here. You can see that from the bottom, it's traditional network infrastructure of communications all the way up to low-earth orbit satellite, which is best effort to have connectivity when the satellite is near you and above you in space. But we operate in the upper, upper, upper part of that pyramid of competitiveness and niche, and we provide exactly what I said on the previous slide, the integrated solution for guaranteed connectivity. The top, top sliver of it is what I would call sovereign capability, meaning that a country or an alliance, but foremost a country have their own capabilities. And we border into that. We work closely with customers on that side so that they have their own resilient and sovereign capability that we can provide for them exclusively. So, we're very well positioned at the higher end of the competitive landscape.

Next slide, please. Now over to Q1. Q1 has been very, very strong for us. I would say that we ended Q4 in 2024, obviously, with a large deal with a Swedish-based corporation that was prepaid in January 2025. So, we filled up the cash bank. That contract started 1st of March. We'll come back to that and what effects it has on the financials. But we also delivered the majority of the mobile satellite terminals during Q4 as well. And we are engaged -- we got one new customer during the quarter. That customer was on the last day of the quarter, actually, a new country that chose to go with Ovzon, and it's a new country in Europe and a NATO country in Europe as well. That was the -- we also did refinancing and with our current financing partner, P Capital Partners, with somewhat better terms and conditions and extended that financing for us, so we would have time to build up for the next generation of solutions and capabilities we have.

Next slide, please. Let me look at this. Which number is this Slide?

[Viktor Bremer, executive]

8.

[Per Noren, executive]

8. Thank you. Just going to move on, so I don't miss anything on this. Then as I said, we received a large order, which was SEK 185 million for a 12-month contract, Swedish Space Corporation. And it includes, of course, Ovzon 3, which is now in use there, and we have delivered most of the terminals, some in Q1 and some in Q2 of those terminals to that deal as well. Very strategic milestone for us in the partnership and a strong financial position for us as well.

Next slide, please. Now, this is very interesting. So when you're in the tough of the competitive landscape with a unique value proposition and integrated solution, we continue to charge forward in finding ways to be more effective and efficient for our customers. And one of the areas in the world that is very, very -- of very high interest to most NATO countries, but I would say foremost the Nordics, the U.S. and Canada is potentially others as well, but those are foremost is the Arctic. And Arctic is difficult and complicated when it comes to satellite communications.

So, we did invest in an expedition to the High North of the Arctic, and we had a very successful expedition with 4 different NATO countries participating in that, where we could validate that our Ovzon 3 satellite and our terminals also, Ovzon T6 and T7, their performance, reliability and ability to work all the way up to Nordkapp flawlessly. And I think this provides a new unique opportunity for our customers to actually build use cases for both manned, unmanned and personal use of satellite communication in an area that is of great interest from a geopolitical perspective today. So, we've gotten a lot of interest from a lot of countries after this, and we will potentially continue further up north with another expedition when the time is right to make sure that we can cover as much up in the High North as we possibly can.

Thank you. Next slide, please. Now let's turn to the financial section of our presentation. The order intake continues to be a bit irregular as I spoke about. So, sometimes it's almost like the finish line is at a certain date, 31st of March, and it might not be so that the actual things we work on come in on that exact day. But also customers want or does not want to take delivery until a certain time when they have the right setup and manning for such an important strategic project like implementing satellite communication for them. So it's very natural that there has some sort of fluctuation in the order intake. But what we can see is that we have actually improved because almost 3 years ago, we would have most of our order intake in 1 quarter, Q4. And that irregularity has actually disappeared, and we have a more even flow even though it can fluctuate between quarter as well.

The order intake for Q1 2025 amounted to $2.2 million, corresponding to SEK 22 million, and it was a new European NATO country that was the order intake for this quarter, mostly. In a 12-month rolling perspective, the order intake continues to increase, and it's now at SEK 413 million compared to SEK 368 million in the first quarter of 2024. Order book amounts to USD 25 million, corresponding to SEK 250 million, and it's a solid figure as it contains network service -- mostly network services. This is a good foundation for 2025.

We focus on developing current customer base, renewals and expansion, upsell opportunities with current customers and expanding with new customers. A lot of concentration is in Europe, but we also do continue our drive and strive in the United States of America, even though their focus has shifted more towards the West, I would say, meaning West of the U.S. versus what they previously had towards the Europe and East as well.

I think that's what I had. And I'll hand it over to you, Viktor, for some deeper analysis of our numbers.

[Viktor Bremer, executive]

Thank you, Per.

The recurring revenues from SATCOM services of SEK 76 million is an improvement in the first quarter compared with the last 4 quarters and compared with the first quarter previous year. And compared with the first quarter previous year, this represents an increase of 112%. Total revenues of SEK 90 million is an improvement of 38% compared with the first quarter previous year. And the revenues from terminals in the quarter amounts to SEK 30 million. Run rate for Ovzon SATCOM services is increasing and followed the positive trend the last year and is also an all-time high in the last 2 years.

Next slide, please. For the fifth quarter in a row, we are improving EBITDA. EBITDA for the quarter amounted to SEK 18 million, which is an improvement of SEK 36 million from the first quarter previous year. The increase of EBITDA and EBITDA margin is an effect of increased utilization of Ovzon 3, with the latest Ovzon 3 order from SSC in December, of which SATCOM services started on March 1. EBIT and EBIT margin were slightly improved in the first quarter, thanks to improved EBITDA, but still negative due to the depreciation related to the activating of Ovzon 3 starting in the third quarter 2024. And the depreciations represent Ovzon 3 -- represent approximately SEK 25 million per quarter.

Next slide, please. Cash flow from operating activities of SEK 66 million is an all-time high for a single quarter, and this is due to the annual customer prepayments that we had in January. Cash flow from investments of SEK 12 million is related to the finalization of Ovzon 3 program and the On-Board-Processor. Net debt increase -- decreases from the fourth quarter with SEK 20 million, down to SEK 629 million, which is mainly an effect of variances in U.S. dollar.

Next slide, please. The total estimated investment in Ovzon 3 for 2025 remains in the span of SEK 50 million to SEK 60 million and is attributable to the finalization of our On-Board-Processor.

In summary, we show that we have a strong business momentum with improved recurring SATCOM revenues, improving EBITDA quarter-by-quarter and also financial position is today stronger than 6 months ago.

Back to you, Per.

[Per Noren, executive]

Thank you so much, Viktor, for that summary.

Well, these graphs, of course, summarizes the key financial performance indicators as we're looking at them. And as you can see, we have a solid order book. Our 12-month order intake continues to increase. Viktor mentioned the recurring SATCOM services revenue stream that we have, which is actually a fundamental piece of what we do. The terminal side, just to mention that, can fluctuate. It depends on the size of the order and when we can deliver things, obviously. Our EBITDA is the most promising, I think, that I feel very, very strongly about, third consecutive quarter as profitable, continues to improve both in absolute numbers and in margin as well. It's very important to our business.

And cash flow is very strong. I think that's also quite important for our business. It's a very -- it's a cash and flow intense business. That requires a lot of hard work. We are very good in managing our operating expenditures and cash management, and we have a solid cash position. I will mention that we have benefited greatly from having customers that want delivery very fast and are prepared to do prepayments for those deliveries, and they were quite large, of course, coming out of 2024 into 2025. So very, very solid for us.

Next slide, please. I think concluding, what's important to the company going forward? We'll go into questions and answer just after this. But I will say financial performance, obviously, is very important. And we measure it and we look at it very thoroughly, both in increased order intake, as I mentioned before, the revenue growth is important. You can't save yourself to prosperity. So, you have to have profitable growth, improved EBITDA, which I think we are on a very good momentum and path on and positive cash flow. And I think we hit it well in this quarter as well.

Now, could we have had a little bit better revenue growth? Yes, we could have if the customers would have wanted, for example, the SSC contract started on March 1. It would have made a huge difference had it started 1st of January or 1st of February. But if the customer is not ready, the customer is not ready and we start when the customer wants to start. So that's what I mean. It then extends that contract into first part of 2026 as well.

Secondly, ensure commercial success. What I feel very strong about is that we've made some phenomenally good technology choices with Ovzon 3, with the Ovzon processor -- On-Board-Processor and with our terminals. We have a phenomenal portfolio of technology and capabilities. We have a great team that can make magic with those technology and even the capacity we buy from -- satellite capacity we buy from others. So, I think the commercial success comes from utilizing external capacity to 100%, fully utilize Ovzon 3, which drives both growth and margin. Really be concentrating on core market segments, I would say, foremost, that would be Europe and the U.S. right now and focus on relevant geographies. And the core market segments will continue to be defense, military and civil defense, national security and public safety. That's where we have our strength.

And then obviously, actively scale up the company. So we are today 38 -- by 31st of March, we're 38 employees, right? You would think that, that would be a very small group to handle such large countries and customers as we have. We've been smart about how we manage our assets, our own assets. We own and control our own IP and design, but we also outsource to highly specialized companies that have done really well in delivering on time, at quality and at cost as well. So overall, I think these objectives and these drives are fundamental to the performance in 2025.

And lastly, before we go over to Q&A, this is kind of a quick reminder what fills our news daily, but I wanted to comment on it somewhat. So, we don't react to things in our business. We concentrate on our core business. We are not currently affected by -- we're not currently affected by the tariffs at all. We are a services business basically. So for our hardware, for our terminals, there might be tariffs potentially. We haven't seen an effect of it yet. If there is, we will do a price adjustment to cover for that. So, I don't see that any of those things are actually fundamentally disturbing our commercial success or progress.

I think unfortunately, with the geopolitical instability, what we deliver, what we do is fundamentally becoming a strategic aspect of every country, any country and alliances. So therefore, it's worthwhile for us to invest in those countries and in those regions and in those alliances that requires advanced satellite communications for their well-being. It's not an easy world to operate in, but I think we have a good position. We stand true to our value proposition and our core business, and we will continue to do so. And I believe that's going to serve us well for the remainder of this year and for the future.

And with that, we'll hand it over to questions and answers.

[Operator]

And the first question here. Are potential customers hesitating to use Ovzon services because there's just one Ovzon satellite and therefore, no redundancy, except for higher capacity on other satellites?

[Per Noren, executive]

Yes. Well, I will answer that question. There were several questions in one there. I would say, no, we do not see a hesitation to use Ovzon services and SATCOM solutions because we only have one satellite. We have the most powerful geostationary satellite in space. We have proven it. We have customers as anchor tenants on that satellite. Others are hugely interested in that satellite. It takes them some time to evaluate their business case and decision process. We do have backup capability through leased capacity from others.

Those are similar in style, those geostationary satellites, but they are available, and we have good relationships with those that manage those. So, I would say no to that question. We do not see a hesitation, rather the opposite. But I do believe that governments that buy this kind of strategic capability are thorough, which they should be, are clear that they want to understand the business cases and how they can use this, but there is nothing hindering Ovzon from continuing its market expansion due to that we only have one satellite.

[Operator]

How are you affected by the new tariffs and the possible effects on supply chain for components or terminals, et cetera?

[Per Noren, executive]

Okay. Thank you for that question. Very good. We do not see any effects of that for the moment. Of course, that might change, that might vary. But we have our supply chain in Europe. So we have very few, if any. I don't think we have any components from other parts of the world. They're either Swedish or they're European and most of it at least. And therefore, we do not see any effects of the tariffs. We have not seen any logistical issues either so far that I know other industries and other customers have. So for the time being and for the moment, I would say there is no disturbance in our supply chain and logistics for what we do today. That could, of course, change. But for the moment, no.

[Operator]

Can you elaborate on Ovzon's strategy for improving profitability and converting top line revenue into sustainable bottom line growth?

[Per Noren, executive]

Bottom line growth? Yes. Yes, you mean net profit. For sure, for sure. As I said in my statement before on one of the previous slides, we definitely need to grow and the growth is the way to get to increased EBITDA and sustainable EBITDA, but also to get to EBIT and net profit levels. So, what we have to do is to sign -- our strive is to sign longer-term contracts for the value we deliver with customers, governments and customers in our markets; defense, national security and public safety. So it comes from trying to be not short-term contracts, but longer-term contracts with sustainable revenue streams, preferably coming with prepayments that will then, in turn, drive investments in how we scale the business going forward and in our supply chains.

And then we can make choices how we invest those money with -- whether it is in new capabilities like satellites and terminals or other things or if we do it by partnering with others. But I think the key is to drive growth, long-term contracts, keeping a very close finger and eye on our operating expenditures and our capital expenditures, but also investing in the future. And that's going to drive positive cash flow reinvestment in the business, reinvestment in the customers. They then turn and got renewed and expand with our services. I think that's how we get to net profit, and that's how we get to consecutive quarters of EBITDA growth going forward.

[Viktor Bremer, executive]

Looking at your current order book, how much is terminals and how will the network part of the order book play out through 2025?

[Per Noren, executive]

Well, I think answering that is, since we deliver an integrated service, an integrated solution rather, I think there's more of a dependency of having enough terminals available so we can ship those quickly to customers and then thereby turn on the services. So, they are actually integrated together. Now since we deliver the best service in the industry, we make sure that we can guarantee performance, mobility and resiliency, what we call The Ovzon Coefficient. So in the order book, it is -- most of it is actually today the services, not terminals. As most -- the absolute majority of the order book is services, which means repeatable monthly, quarterly kind of services that we deliver. So, not that many terminals. For new deals or new contracts that come in into the order book, there will be front-loaded delivery of terminals most often to deliver those and then added on the services when the customers have the terminals in hand. But right now, services.

[Operator]

Do you see more potential in Europe or in the U.S. for the rest of 2025?

[Per Noren, executive]

I see more potential in Europe for the rest of 2025, to be quite honest. I think the investments that are going into satellite -- strategic satellite communications in Europe are very, very, very advanced in Europe right now, given the situation in Ukraine, Gaza and other places. So the geopolitical pressure drives investments in defense spending. Defense looks at satellite communication as a strategic asset. Therefore, the interest and the investment profile is very, very high. Now, that doesn't mean that the interest and investments in the U.S. go down, but I think the concentration of the efforts is actually for the European government, European Union, NATO and friendly neighbors, the Nordics, the Baltics and part of Europe is very high now in investing in defense and satellite communications. So, I see that we have a great possibility to do something there.

[Operator]

It has been discussions regarding Starlink's presence in Europe and Ukraine. Would Ovzon be a possible replacement for Starlink in those markets?

[Per Noren, executive]

Very good question. Something we get quite often. I would say -- if I answer simply, I would say yes, but I will be more granular than that. Ovzon cannot replace the thousands and thousands of satellites that Starlink operates today. So, we will be part of a solution, an essential part of a solution, but it cannot only be Ovzon. But obviously, we replace for mission-critical stuff. And for defense, national security and public safety, we should be the preferred choice of capability there, but it needs to be complemented with other types of capabilities that are European-based. And many of you have seen articles and so on about some other solution providers that have those capabilities. But Ovzon is definitely one part of that architecture and solution for sure.

[Operator]

Looking at current development, when would it be defendable with another satellite?

[Per Noren, executive]

It is always defendable with another satellite, as we say, in the space industry. But joking aside, listen, the lead times for new satellites are fairly long. So, I would say this without opening up to too many more questions around it. We are investigating. We know that the platform we have created in Ovzon 3 and with the On-Board-Processor is state-of-the-art, works fantastic with an enormous performance mobility and resiliency for our customers. So, we believe that we have a technology platform that actually should be repeatable. So, we're looking into what that would mean if they're -- how fast something could be built. But it's not only about the capability because we see the need in the market, right? But it's not only the capability of the technology, the platform and the service we provide.

You also have to make sure that you can have a financing solution that is effective for the company and for its shareholders. So there are -- and then there's regulatory aspects of this as well. Do we have orbital slots? Can we get a launch that is affordable, et cetera? But we are working actively with these things for the moment here since we see the prospect of Ovzon 3 being very successful. But there are many aspects of this that needs to get into consideration that myself and the management team and the Board needs to evaluate. But we do not rest on our laurels. We're actually actively kind of looking at what we do next to drive growth for the company and value to our customers.

[Operator]

Moving on to the last question here. How much of the capacity of Ovzon 3 is utilized as of right now, preferably answered in a percentage?

[Per Noren, executive]

Yes. I think this is a question that we very, very often get, and we'll probably have to get to a point where we talk about it more in detail. But right now, we need to protect both pricing. We need to protect kind of ourselves from being too scrutinized with that. But you know, the market knows and the one that asks the question knows that we have a number of anchor customers on the satellite. We have some smaller use cases that we have used it for. So, we are steadily improving the anchor tenants on the satellite. And hopefully, we will be able to shed some more light on this during the remainder of this year. But right now, I'm not going to reveal or guide anything on the capacity utilization of the satellite. But it's looking very strong and it's looking very positive.

[Operator]

Thank you so much, Per, Viktor, for presenting here today and answering all our questions. And I wish you all a pleasant day.

[Per Noren, executive]

Thank you so much, Ludwig.