Bravida Holding AB
STO:BRAV
Bravida Holding AB
STO:BRAV
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Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this presentation of Bravida's Q4 report 2024.
And together with me today, as always, Asa Neving who will help me to summarize the year of '24 and the last quarter as well. So by that, I think we start.
You know Bravida. And I think in these market conditions, I think it is very good to be in different places, in many different markets, working with a lot of different types of customers in different segments. And I think that has been shown in the quarter as well. Even if the circumstances has been quite tough for some quarters now, I think we are delivering a very stable result. We are showing stability, resistance.
The sales is in line with the same quarter last year, and the total sales for the full year is in line with the previous year as well. And on top of that, we are presenting a margin that is slightly improved and a really strong cash conversion, which I will come back to giving us the opportunity or the Board the opportunity to suggest or propose an increased dividend as well.
But starting with the fourth quarter, flat growth as expected in a challenging market, and that is very much due to strict project selection. We have a negative organic growth, but we are offsetting that with a 4% acquired growth. Service is continuing to growing plus 5% in the quarter. The order intake is a bit challenging, minus 26%, and that is divided into 2 different parts, I would say.
First, we have tough comps. Last year, in the same quarter, we won a project in the subway in Stockholm. That was a contract worth SEK 1.3 billion. The other part of this is that we are very selective in our project selection and what kind of projects we are trying to win. The strategy is clear. We want to only bring in projects or businesses with a good margin.
And the existing order backlog is on group level, okay. There are some differences in the different geographies, but the margin in the order backlog is a bit better than before. So if we have been able to wish, we had preferred a slightly higher order backlog, but we're getting closer and closer to the turn in the market. So it's very important to continue to be very selective.
EBITA margin improved to 7.5%. We can see that we are improving the margin in Denmark. We are improving it in Norway as well as in Finland. And the big change is, of course, the turnaround in Denmark that we have been communicating since before as well.
In this margin, we have also taken some costs for type of one-offs in south, SEK 41 million in the quarter. We have also made the last provision for Northvolt, as you can see, in the quarter, and that is an amount at SEK 30 million. And if you adjust for those 2 one-offs or excluding the items affecting comparability, we have a margin at 8.3%, which is really, really strong.
And in Sweden, the margin is a bit challenged, and that is because the south part of Sweden, the rest of Sweden is doing very, very well. In Norway, we are improving the margin even if we are including the Thunestvedt acquisition, which is going due to plan. So we are having a 7.5% margin compared to 5.9% in Norway, which is really good. And Denmark is improving from around 0% to 4% in the quarter. Finland improved to 6.4%, and that number was 6.1% last year.
Cash flow continues to be good. We have a cash conversion of 105%. And therefore, together we have a combination with a very strong balance sheet since before, the Board proposed an increased dividend of SEK 3.75 per share. And regarding our injuries, we are improving as well, very good to see that, that is improving with 11%.
If we are summarizing the year as well, flat growth, slightly up 1% plus. Organic growth is negative, but we have an acquired growth at 5%. We have some FX effects as well. Service again, is growing if we look at the full year as well as in the quarter, good momentum.
We have decreasing sales in Sweden due to the soft market in the south part. Otherwise, we are growing in Sweden as well. And the order intake is improving in Norway, but decline in other markets and in total, minus 7%. And again, the order backlog is on an okay level. There are differences in the geographies, but the margin in the order backlog, what we can see is better than before.
EBITA margin, 5.2% compared to 5.9%. If we adjust for the cost I just explained about, we are at 5.7%, which I consider as an okay level if we think about the market we are acting in. Impact of total bad debt is around approximately SEK 100 million related to Northvolt in 2024. And we have restructuring costs in Sweden and Denmark at some of close to SEK 70 million. Strong cash flow, SEK 1.9 billion and cash conversion at 105% creates a very strong balance sheet that we have had for a while. And again, the Board proposes, therefore, an increased dividend.
And the history of the dividend development, you can see on this slide. Cash flow year-on-year, plus 34% we have a very low debt level, and we have actually been able to increase the dividend per share with a CAGR of 16% since we did the IPO back in 2015.
If we look at the EBITDA on this bridge, we had a sales at SEK 8.1 billion last year. We have some negative organic growth, and that is offset by acquired growth. And then we have some currency effect impacting it negatively, and that ends up at SEK 8,108 billion, which I think shows a stability in our business model. We normally say that we can't do anything about the market, but we can decide what we are doing in the market. And I think we have handled this in a quite okay way.
EBITA again, another way to slice it, margin at 7.5% compared to 7.4%. The margin is improved in Denmark, Finland and Norway, especially happy to see that the way we have communicated about Denmark actually is delivered in the fourth quarter as well. So now we see '25 as a transition year to '26, where we should have tried to reach the full potential in Denmark. But the result in '25 are really exciting to see, but we are very positive about that, and we will see an improvement in the Danish business going forward.
As expected, a weak market, especially in the south part of Sweden, and that brought down the group margin a bit. If we adjust -- the adjusted cost is SEK 41 million in the quarter, as said earlier, and that is mainly due to restructuring costs in the south part of Sweden, and then you had the SEK 30 million in Northvolt, and that takes us to the EBITA at SEK 604 million, 7.5%. If we adjust for the cost I just mentioned, we are at 8.3% in the quarter, which is a lot better than last year.
The order intake and backlog, again, as I said, a level that we are okay with. Of course, we have been very happy if we have had a slightly higher order backlog. But again, if we compare the numbers, quite tough comps compared to last year, SEK 1.3 billion in the subway of Stockholm, and that is a project that hasn't really started yet. So that production is ahead of us.
Better margin in the existing backlog than we have had before. We are very selective because we want to be sure -- the strategy is very clear. We want to be sure that we only bring in healthy projects in the order backlog because the closer you get to the turnaround in the market, the more important it is to not have filled up the order backlog with bad projects. So very strict, and we try to follow that strategy to 100%, of course. So an okay level, but not perfect, but better margin.
And we still see the market to be a bit challenging in the first 2 quarters at least in 2025, even if we see a lot of good concrete discussions with customers of ours, and that is always what happens in the beginning when the market turns. It starts with a lot of discussion and I haven't had as many tender meetings for a very long time that I have had in December and January.
So in that perspective, we are a bit positive that the market is soon turning. It hasn't done it yet, but the activity is much, much more positive than it was a couple of months ago. So hopefully, we can see what all reporting companies have said that we are expecting a better market after the summer, but that is to be confirmed.
ESG, 36% of all our vehicles are electrical driven today. That also have the impact of the CO2 emissions. If we don't adjust for the growth we have had, we are improving that KPI with 40%. If we do the comparison due to how much we have been growing, we are actually improving that KPI with 36%, which is good. And that is just to be improved while we are changing the old cars as well.
Especially happy to see that all our skilled engaged people are having less accidents. We are improving that number with 11%. And today, we are at really good levels in Sweden and Norway. We are still lagging in Finland and Denmark, and that is high up on our agenda to make sure that Finland and Denmark are improving as well. But we are well above the 5.5% target in Sweden and Norway. And good to see improvement. We want to become even better, especially in Denmark and Finland.
And then over to the acquisitions. 10 acquisitions during '24, adding around SEK 600 million in sales. No acquisitions in Denmark, of course, due to our focus on improving our own profitability. We have also decided that we haven't focused on acquisitions in Norway until now because of the extensive integration of Thunestvedt Group, which is going due to plan or slightly better, as we have said before, and no changes in that perspective.
We have got a much, much better market position in that area. And we can now confirm and see that we have actually got a lot of new skilled Bravidians in that area from the Thunestvedt acquisition. So very much in line with what we expected. So going ahead, we think that Thunestvedt can support the margin improvement in Norway as well.
We still see a continued good acquisition opportunities in the market, especially if we now open up slowly in Norway and Denmark again, attractive multiples, a lot of companies that is possible to buy, so we can continue to consolidate and use our strong balance sheet to do that going forward.
With that, I hand over to Asa and she will take you through the different countries.
Thank you, Mattias. Thanks. And then as usually, we start with Sweden. If you look at the top line, the sales decreased with 4% in the quarter and ended up at SEK 3.9 billion and this is due to a very soft market in the south part of Sweden. Our largest division is division south and that division has declined with where the volume has decreased with 20% in the quarter, which has a big impact on Sweden overall.
If you look at the organic growth, it was approximately minus 7%, and the growth from acquisition is plus 2%. The EBITA margin declined to 9.6% compared to 11.3% last year. And this is then due to this continued soft market in the south part of Sweden. We've had, as we have talked about, a transformation program ongoing throughout the year. And at the end of the quarter, we have taken restructuring costs of SEK 41 million.
And roughly half is coming from layoffs that we have done and the other half is from premises. So we have merged offices and closed down offices, and then we have had empty premises that we have left.
We have also taken provisions for Northvolt at SEK 30 million in the quarter. And that means that we have covered the entire exposure that we had to Northvolt during the year. And if we exclude these items affecting comparability, we would have a margin of 11.4% compared to 11.3%.
The order intake is minus 40%. And as Mattias said, we have had tough comps this quarter. Last year, we had the big order from Tunnelbanan. And if you adjust for that, the order intake was minus 18%. And we have a pretty strong backlog and order intake in the Northern and mid part of Sweden and a weak order intake and order backlog in the southern part of Sweden.
So markets still continue to be weak. As Mattias said, it looks a little bit better, but we are very cautious and not taking on projects with low margins when we believe now that the market will turn soon. So order backlog, minus 40% year-on-year.
If you move on to Norway, we had a growth in sales of minus 2%. So the growth from organic was 7% and the growth from acquisition was 6%. And then we had an FX effect of minus 1%. The growth from the service business was strong, 13% and the share of service in the quarter was 60% compared to 52% last year of the total turnover. And the negative growth was then coming from the installation business, minus 18%.
So the margin improved to 7.5% in the quarter compared to 5.9% last quarter, and this is including the Thunestvedt acquisition. And the Thunestvedt has actually been going according to plan or actually better than plan and has not diluted the margin much in the quarter and also not in the year.
So order intake was plus 10% coming mostly from service. The order backlog in Norway is on minus 23% year-on-year. So we need to fill up the order backlog in Norway, but there are a lot of interesting projects here in early phases, infrastructure project and others. So we hope to see that coming into the order backlog going forward.
Moving on to Denmark, where we had a sales of SEK 2 billion compared to SEK 1.8 billion last year in the quarter. That is a 9% growth, and it is due to strong growth in the service business. The organic growth was plus 9%. We have not had any acquisitions in Denmark, as Mattias said, because we've been focusing on improving the underlying profitability.
The EBITA margin, we are happy to see that it has improved to 4% according to our expectations. That was 0.1% last year, and this is due to a better performance both in service and in installation. We see a large improvement in the underlying business, and we have a much more consolidated balance sheet now going forward. So we expect the performance to continue to improve during next year.
We had an order intake of SEK 1.6 billion compared to SEK 2 billion. That is minus 20%. We have been very selective in taking new orders, but there is a strong order backlog in Denmark, plus 8%, and the market in Denmark is strong. So we see very positive on Denmark going forward. We have also a better margin in the order backlog in Denmark.
Finland, net sales, SEK 623 million compared to SEK 599 million. The growth in sales was 4% and this is due to the growth in installation. We had an organic growth of minus 3%. So the growth is coming from acquisition, plus 6% A good performance in Finland. EBITA margin improved to 6.4% compared to 6.1%. And we are seeing an improved margin in the installation business.
The Finnish market is probably the weakest one. We see an order intake decrease by minus 11%, and the order backlog is minus 33% year-on-year. So here, we need to fill up the order stock somewhat, but we believe that the market in Finland will be weak in the next coming quarters. That was our countries.
If we move on to the net debt and cash position, you can see in the chart in the middle that we still have a strong operating cash flow. In the quarter, it was SEK 756 million. And then if you compare it to last year, you see that it was a lot higher. But last year, the entire cash flow came from the fourth quarter.
So for the full year, we had an operating cash flow of SEK 1.9 billion compared to SEK 1.4 billion last year. And that means we had a strong cash conversion still at 105%. And the net debt remains low, as you can see on the left-hand side on SEK 2. 2 billion. That leads to a net debt-to-EBITDA ratio of 1.0. So we still have a lot of headroom for making good acquisitions and also paying out dividends to our shareholders.
We still have 3 large unpaid receivables, 2 in Denmark and 1 in Norway. The one in Norway and one of the outstanding receivable in Denmark, we expect to be solved at the end of this year. And the other Danish one will not be resolved until 2028 as expected right now.
Yes, you can see we still have an RCF on SEK 2.5 million that we haven't been using at the end of fourth quarter. We have commercial paper program, and that is what we have been using in the fourth quarter together with the term loan that we have on SEK 500 million.
Still a strong cash flow. Maybe we should say that we expect the cash flow in the first quarter to be a bit lower or softer than last year because in the first quarter in Q4, we had strong prepayments or good prepayments from both Tunnelbana and some of the large projects in Denmark. So tough comps for cash flow in Q1, but still good.
Good cash flow, but not as good as last year.
Exactly.
Because last year, it was extraordinary.
Exactly.
Thanks, Asa. And maybe the slide everyone has been waiting for, I don't know, but the market outlook for 2025, and maybe I wish that some of you could help me present this because who knows.
But what we do know is that service activity continues to benefit from a positive growth environment. We are very well positioned to capture the service growth going forward as well. As you have heard today, even if '24 was a really tough year, the service business were growing 5%, both in the quarter as well as the full year. There are challenges in the installation market, and that will continue for a while.
There are variations between geographies, but market is expected to recover after the summer. That activity has increased a lot more discussions now, more tenders, more tender meetings internally within Bravida where we are discussing future businesses. And that is positive. But before them are into our order books, it will take some time.
There are favorable market conditions for projects in, for example, infrastructure, industry, defense facilities, civil engineering, and that is providing business opportunities for a company like Bravida. And I also want to say that this is not a new market we are entering. I think it's slightly more positive than before, and we have handled this type of market very well.
If you read the report, we are saying that we have lost around 20% of the sales in south part of Sweden. And that is normally one of our most profitable areas and one of the biggest areas in Sweden. And still, we are able to present a flat growth because we are strong in these areas I just described. We are growing in service. And there are some areas where we are well positioned within.
And we have done fantastic work in central part of Sweden, north part of Sweden as well in the improvement we have done in Denmark, continued improvement in Norway, but also a solid performance in a tricky market as in Finland as well. So I would say that the market outlook is more positive, but it's not good yet. The first 2 quarters will be a challenge still.
We will maintain our project selectiveness. That is a clear strategy. We will continue to focus on cost control across all projects and margin over volume is important. And I said in the beginning of this presentation, the order backlog is slightly lower, but the quality of the order backlog we have is better.
And we continue to see an attractive pipeline of acquisition opportunities. But on that side as well, we also see that the companies we are looking at acquiring is also struggling from this tough market. So that's why we have been a bit more I would say, thorough when we're doing the acquisitions. But we will continue to acquire a company, and that is the same strategy as within the project market. We will do this with selectiveness.
So over to the financial targets. We have been able to deliver on the cash conversion, the debt level, and also on the sales growth, not in '24, but otherwise, we have been able to deliver on that one as well for many, many years. And we also today announced that the Board proposed a dividend that is well above the target of above 50% of the net profit.
The margin target is one of the targets that are remaining. That will not happen in '25, but I think we will see a continued improved margin throughout the year, a tricky start though. But then in '26, I hope that the market is back again and then we can come very close to the 7% target.
So with that, I want to summarize the quarter once again and sales unchanged. Service sales up 5%. Organic growth is negative. Acquired growth is 4%. And as expected and quite clearly communicated earlier, we have seen an improvement in Denmark. And the margin is negatively impacted by the soft market in south. If we adjust for the cost connected to Northvolt and some other one-off costs in the business, we are adding around SEK 170 million in total for the full year.
We see improved profitability in Denmark, Norway and Finland and in Sweden as well, if we adjust for the things I just mentioned. In Sweden, we also have a positive margin development in all areas, except the south part. Good cash flow and cash conversion and the Board proposed an increased dividend, and we have increased I would say, improved our work with safety for all our personnel in a very, very good way. And the CO2 emissions from vehicles is down with 14%.
So with that, I guess we are open up for some Q&A. And in the presentation, you'll also find some upcoming events. So please, we are ready.
[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Carl Ragnerstam from Nordea.
It's Carl here from Nordea. A few questions from my side here. Firstly, if we look further into the restructuring here in southern Sweden, are these the final restructuring measures you're taking in consolidating and discontinuing branches?
And also, if we could touch upon how much you lowered the FTEs in the region south when you entered the year and where we are today? And also, you mentioned that 50% of the non-recurring items related to the restructuring are layoffs. I guess most are not leaving from day one. So what lead times should we expect until you get the full materialization of these measures?
If I start, then Asa can take you through the numbers and the facts. But as for now, I think this is what we have planned to do. But of course, if the market continues or changes, we are ready to hire people and of course, do some more layoffs if needed. But it seems like it has bottomed out. So for now, I think we are done, but it depends on the market development, you can say. And then to the facts also.
Yes, you can say that we have taken out or laid off between 300 and 400 people during the year in the southern part of Sweden. And the restructuring costs, yes, half of it is layoffs and half of it is premises. And that is -- I mean, it is for people that have left the company. So they are not -- there is nothing in the next -- there are no recurring costs in the next year. So the costs are out.
You will enter Q1 with the lower cost base already fully materialized so far?
Yes.
But then, of course, Carl, just when you're putting something in your Excel sheet, of course, some of the cost is related to productive people as well. So it's a combination of admin cost and productive people. So, yes.
Exactly. And that means that we will have a low volume also expected for the next quarters.
Yes. And just to be clear as well, we are following the accounting rules. If you have a layoff of people who are still working, then that is not a one-off cost. That is production cost.
That is part of the ongoing business. So we usually don't have that much restructuring costs, but this is an extraordinary case, you can say.
Okay. That's very clear. Looking into Denmark, you see that margins are back at positive territories. Could you give a flavor between the profitability between services and installation? I guess installation is the part where you've been struggling. Also, when looking at the numbers here, it looked like services is growing 23% year-over-year, which is a quite big acceleration to what you had, for instance, in Q3. So is the service uptick sustainable? And also what is the route to profitability in installation from here?
But I think this is a bit technical answer maybe. But I would say that there are few projects that are going south and we are losing money. A big part of the installation part is also profitable. But the comment we have in the report in total, the installation business is negative due to some projects. If the growth in service is sustainable, I think growing that high on service is not sustainable. But the margin in Denmark is expected to continue to be improved in '25. And I think that Denmark will present -- I think you will see the same trend in Q1 as you have seen in Q4.
Asa, do you want to add something?
Just that installation, it's still negative, but it's a lot less negative than last year. So, improving.
Yes. And I think we have said earlier that we have a few places where we are not profitable today. So the problem is getting more and more isolated. And we also see improvement in many areas. So Denmark is doing really, really well in some regions, branches and still struggling in some. But the overall performance is a lot, lot better.
That's very clear. And you talked also about a good quotation/tender momentum in the market. In your opinion, what is today holding back your clients or customers from converting quotations into firm orders? What is really holding them back today do you think? Even generalize, of course.
Yes. I guess you're not speaking about Denmark anymore, the whole group.
No, no, general. Yes.
But I think the first thing that happens when the market turns, lower interest rates, a more positive attitude from investors, customers, et cetera, is to start to check and control what is the price for doing the things I want to do. Then you are -- need some time to adjust the cost they get from our prices to see if they can sell the product, the service to their clients.
And I think there is still some time before we can see the business actually being contracts. But I've been in this industry for a very long time, as you know, Carl, and this is always the first sign of the market turning. That is that the discussions actually happens. They are interesting and see what we can deliver to what price to the customers. And then after a while, they decide to push the button and then we will then have a deal and the market turns.
That is very clear. And sorry for my final question here. And in Norway, you write in the report that the margin is driven by good installation project deliveries, right, or something like that. But in the split, if I look at the revenues here as well, it looks like installation is contracting quite heavily year-over-year, while services that typically is the most profitable is gaining quite good share of segment sales.
So when you look into first half of '25, you say that the backlog is a bit thin, you need to get in more orders. But on the other hand, we see that services is clearly holding up quite well. So do you think that the service resilience or momentum in Norway is enough to offset the slower installation sales as we see it by the numbers in first half '25?
You're referring to the order intake and order backlog or...
Yes. Segment revenues by -- yes, a lot of it. I mean the dynamics here, I think, is the most important.
But I think in all the Nordics countries, there are still some pressure in the market, but we still think that Norway will continue to improve their margins. And that is -- one reason is that we, of course, see very positive about the Thunestvedt acquisition to continue to deliver.
Another thing is that we also have fewer disputes, we are delivering very well. And we also have been, maybe, I don't know, maybe a bit conservative on the hospital in Stavanger, where we -- as long as we have had production until mid-November or something, we had done some more provisions, and that is also impacting the margin. So let's see. I'm still positive about the Norwegian development in the coming year.
[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Karl Noren from SEB.
I have a couple of questions as well. If we start on Denmark, I was just wondering a little bit on the margin here. I mean, should we see the margin improving quarter-over-quarter here going forward? Or is there a quarterly variation where Q4 is strong? Or can you give us a little bit more what we should expect for 2025 near 2026?
I think Q1 this year will, of course, be much better than Q1 last year. I think you can see improvement quarter-to-quarter, of course. I think you can see the normal seasonality in Denmark. And all over, you will see the trend in Q4 will continue into Q1 and then for the full year of '25. So we will not be at the full potential in Denmark in '25. '25, as I said before, will be a year of transition, but it will be -- we haven't guided about this, but the '25 will be much better than a year. It will be not normal, but very close to normal.
And then very early, of course, we have a good quarter in Q4. We see the trends. I think we need to prove it in another quarter, but we are -- we -- the discussions in Denmark have shifted to more strategic discussions instead of turnaround discussions.
Yes. And on the backlog in Denmark, I guess, as I've read you and listening to you before, it sounds like the backlog in Denmark is in quite good shape, right? Does that continue to be the case?
Yes.
Yes. Good. And if we turn page to Sweden, I also have some questions on the larger, let's say, infrastructure projects that you're currently delivering on. I mean you have the bypass Stockholm here. Can you just tell us a little bit about how the production levels are looking for that in 2025 versus 2024?
Yes. Do you have those numbers, Asa?
It will be on the bypass, it will be a bit higher. I don't know exactly how much. But if you look at Tunnelbana that we expected to come in, in the end of the first half of this year, it will be delayed. So the latest now is probably around summer, but we expect it to be probably even later and maybe not until next year that production will start.
Okay. That's clear. And then last question on Norway. I mean the acquisition of Thunestvedt Group seems to perform quite well and the whole Norwegian business is doing good. So I was wondering how much the acquisition still is diluting the margin. So if you could give how they are performing, would be helpful.
It's actually not diluting the margin that much. So we haven't disclosed it because it is marginal, I can say.
Then it has much have been much better than when you acquired it.
Yes. Especially in the fourth quarter.
Still a quarter only. So we are focusing on the plan, delivering 0% first year, 2% the second year, which we are into and then 5% year 3. So -- but it's, as we said, better than planned so far. And that's positive, of course.
Yes. And then just if I may squeeze in one more on Sweden. I mean, with this restructuring you made here, I mean, it sounds like you should get some benefit here in the Q1 and going forward. And I mean, you still improved the margin a little bit in Sweden if adjusting for the one-offs here. Is that a trend that you think you can continue to hold up even in this weak market that the margin continues to improve or be quite flattish year-over-year?
I think south part of Sweden is very hard to forecast. I think it -- and also, we had a really strong ending in the rest of Sweden last year, even if we had to cover some bankruptcies, as you know about in the market, I think we're a bit humble about the market conditions in south part of Sweden. And also, I think it's not sure that the rest of Sweden can deliver that high margin even if they will be very, very stable. So a tough H1, but then I think we are more positive.
The next question comes from Karl-Johan Bonnevier from DNB Markets.
First of all, congratulations to a very, very solid report. Just to continue on the previous question there. If you look at -- particularly on south Sweden, do you see the same trend there with a lot of more quoting activities and contract requests and similar kind of things?
And I think that is a difference because there are some increased activity, but not as much as in the other areas. And I think that is -- that trend continues for the south part. And the reason behind it, I don't know. My private thoughts or my own thoughts around that is the lack of power, energy, electricity, but I don't know. There are no industry investments in the south part of Sweden. So unfortunately, south part of Sweden will continue to be a bit challenging but I think otherwise, it is, can you say, applicable for the rest of the countries we are in.
Sounds good. You have basically answered a lot of the other questions I've had. But when I look at your comment on maybe getting margins closer to 7% by 2026, when you look at that mix and how you have changed your footprint in both Norway and Denmark, do you see those markets being able to also deliver up towards that level in that kind of time frame?
I think Norway should be above 7%, as I said before. And Denmark and Finland, we have said around 6%. And when I look at Denmark today, I think they can probably surprise us all a bit positively, but that is to be proven later on. It's still very early, but the way we are handling new bids, how we are pricing them is totally different.
So I think our way to reach 7% is to, of course, get a better market in south and get up the margin again in south part of Sweden that help us have a sustainable high margin in Sweden, Norway above 7% and then Finland and Denmark around 6%. That will take us to the 7%.
And also just a more detailed question. Looking at the financial net in Q4, what happened -- and what would, say, the normal interest cost be going forward given your low gearing level?
Yes, I don't know exactly, but it has gone down. If you look at Q4, both the debt level and the interest rate is lower then. So we expect that to be continuing on, yes, on that level. We don't know, of course, where the interest rate is going, but Q4 is a good guess.
And if you look at the SEK 50 million in Q4, is there a lot of FX in that as well, FX variations? Or is it a pure interest rate?
It's mostly interest, lower debt and lower interest rates.
Excellent. And how much of that is related to IFRS 16, if you go dig into the real details.
That I will have to check. You can get back to me on that.
There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.
Okay. Thank you so much. And I also want to take the opportunity to remind you about the AGM coming up in end of April and then the presentation of the Q1 report in beginning of May.
And with that, we thank you for all the good questions and summarize a quite solid report with a big thank you to all of you for listening and watching. And now we will continue to work with improving Bravida.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye-bye.