Astra Microwave Products Ltd
BSE:532493
Earnings Call Analysis
Q3-2024 Analysis
Astra Microwave Products Ltd
The conference began by outlining a significant rise in the defense industry, accelerated by increased government spending. This escalation is attributed to the current geopolitical climate with a focus on self-reliance and export expansion. It was noted during Astra Microwave Products Limited's Q3 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call that the Indian government's recent budget allocated a substantial 13% to defense, the highest among ministries, underscoring the nation's commitment to fortifying its defense capabilities.
Building upon the industry's upward trend, Astra Microwave seems well-prepared to take advantage of this expansion. The company claims to possess essential capabilities, in-depth expertise, and a strong focus on research and development. This, combined with a strategic plan that's been in place, sets the firm with an edge to seize upon and excel in the new opportunities that the growth in defense spending may present.
Astra's financials have shown promising results with the highest quarterly EBITDA reported to date. The top line demonstrated a year-on-year growth of 5%, with revenues at INR 230 crores. EBITDA margins were robust at 29.1%, while profit after tax (PAT) margins rose to 18.3%. The domestic market, particularly the defense segment, which constituted 72% of the top line, had a significant role. The order book appears healthy, with INR 256 crores of orders during the quarter, leading to a total order book of INR 1,813 crores, which implies a book to bill ratio of 2.24.
Although revenue projections fell slightly short of the INR 900 crores target, settling between INR 860 and INR 890 crores for the year, the company expects to surpass the bottom line targets in terms of profit before tax (PBT). Notably, there is considerable enthusiasm around the Akash NG missile system, which could provide steady future revenues. Additionally, Astra Microwave is venturing into the space sector, aiming to integrate, test, and launch satellites in the coming years. An investment of INR 40 crores over three years is planned to develop facilities at their Bangalore unit for this purpose. Looking ahead, the company targets about INR 1,300 crores of order booking and a top line in the range of INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,100 crores for the next year, with an expected PBT of 16% to 18%.
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Astra Microwave Products Limited Q3 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. S.G. Reddy, Managing Director. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Sagar, and good afternoon, everyone. A warm welcome to all the participants for the post-results earning call of our company. I'm with my colleague, Mr. M.V. Reddy and Mr. Atim Kabra and SGA, our Investor Relations advisers. The results and investors presentation for Q3 and 9 months ended are uploaded on our company's website and stock exchanges. I hope you had an opportunity to look at it. To begin with, I would like to take out a minute and talk about macro industry level trends. As we all have witnessed that there has been a remarkable upward trend in the defense industry, which is fueled by the heightened government spendings. The prevailing geopolitical environment and the commitment to fostering self-reliance and increasing exports has become the major driving force behind this growth. Correspondingly, the Union Budget presented by the Finance Minister last week allocated 13% of the budgeted -- budgeting amount to amounting to about INR 6.21 trillion to the Minister of Industry -- Defense for the fiscal '24-'25. This the highest budget allocation among all the ministries, showcasing the importance placed by the government on strengthening our nation's defense capabilities. This further generates a multitude of new projects to equip armed forces with cutting-edge and sophisticated technology, lethal weapons, fighter aircrafts, ships, platforms, unmanned aerial vehicles, drones and others -- other specialist vehicles and also to upgrade and modernize the existing aircraft. Further, DRDO is lending extensive support to the industry to make India a net defense exporter. Transfer of technology is a key initiative in this direction.
In this backdrop, Astra is strategically positioned to capitalize -- to capture a large pie of this growing opportunity. Our organization is equipped with capabilities, deep domain expertise, years of invaluable experience and an unwavering commitment to research and development, coupled with our robust strategic framework. We are in a position at an advantage to explore and excel in emerging opportunities.
To get into the specifics, during the quarter, I am pleased to share with you that we have reported a good set of numbers for the quarter with highest quarterly EBITDA impact. Our top line stood at about INR 230 crores, which is 5% year-on-year growth as indicated in our previous guidance. Additionally, EBITDA margins came in at a healthy 29.1% and PAT margins surging at 18.3%. During the quarter, our domestic business contributed to about 80% of the top line. Further, within the domestic business, defense has contributed to 72% of the top line. As a result, we have seen the surging gross margins flowing through EBITDA margins. Coming to our order book. Our order win continues to be healthy. We have booked about INR 256 crores of -- worth of orders during the quarter, with overall order book standing at INR 1,813 crores, implying book to bill at 2.24x. I wish to inform you that during the quarter, the company has responded to RFPs worth about INR 155 crores and expect to book about 200-plus worth of orders in Q4. With this, we should be able to achieve our and surpass our order book guidance for the year.
In terms of the sales, we should be able to achieve around INR 860 crores to INR 890 crores for the whole year as against target of INR 900 plus crores. However, we should be able to cross the bottom line target in terms of the [ PBT ]. We are happy to inform you that we have a significant contribution in Akash NG, which was successfully testified during the quarter. This has a potential to give a steady revenue for the company in the coming future.
We are also happy to inform you that the company has decided to further expand its business in space segment by foraying into satellite integration, testing and launch its own next satellite in the next couple of years. Facilities for the same will be built at our existing Bangalore unit, and we have budgeted to spend about INR 40 crores in the next 3 years.
For the coming year, we target to achieve about INR 1,300 crores of order booking, a top line in the range of about INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,100 crores with a PBT in the range of 16% to 18%.
With these remarks, now I hand it over to my colleague, Mr. M.V. Reddy, to share his thoughts and later on to Mr. Atim Kabra. Thank you.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. As Mr. S.G. Reddy had mentioned, our overall performance in Q3 was at par with the guidance given in the previous quarter earning call. We have booked INR 256 crores worth of orders in last quarter, it is Q3, which constitutes INR 161 crores from domestic segment and INR 95 crores export orders. In domestic market, we bagged 136 crores from radar, which is our main focus area, INR 16 crores from AW and defense communications segment and INR 9 crores from space and meteorology sector.
Also pleased to inform that we won close to INR 66 crores worth of development contracts from various DRDO [indiscernible] labs. Overall, we have booked INR 830 crores in FY '24 as on 31st December. And we are -- that results to be close to the INR 1,813 crores as the total overall order book as of 31st December and expect to book a minimum of INR 230 crores less in the current quarter. We have bright visibility to book INR 1,300 crores worth of orders in FY '25, majority of them are production orders from domestic segment. As regard to sales, except a couple of R&D projects, which we slipped out of production in the last quarter, we have ramped up our domestic sales and will further get improved in coming quarters to achieve INR 1,000 crores plus landmark in FY '25. We are also delighted to inform that our JV company, ARC, has recorded a splendid performance, both in terms of order book as well as sales, with INR 395 crores orders booked in the current year. Our ARC has a backlog of INR 547 crores as on 31st December '23. Also, we could register sales of INR 150 crores in 9 months period and planning to book INR 92 crores revenue in Q4. And we have a clear visibility to book INR 900 crores plus orders in the next 3 quarters. Going forward, we have a very good visibility to maintain sustainable growth with the opportunities emerging in the domain of our operations.
That's all from my side. We would like to be happy to answer your questions. Now I will hand over to Mr. Atim Kabra to share his thoughts. Thank you.
Good afternoon, everybody. I will start with an observation. The legacy of the Second World War nearly 80 years ago still defines the strategic [ defense ] of wars. Though it has been seriously rewritten, as war is increasingly being [ shared ] by technology, and that's where we sit in. And within that unmanned -- and within this overall space, the unmanned weapon system, they have changed the very paradigm of our how wars are fought. With the new unmanned weapon systems, being very cheap and highly effective, with delivery mechanisms ranging from the vehicles to the sky, to the field, and they allow not only real-time intelligence, but also adjustments to fire around the clock without pause, with high precision, while striking both in the frontline as well as behind the enemy lines. Now if I combine this capability with digital field creations, radio electronics, environmental control and cyber [ assets ], basically, technology-driven war is [indiscernible] superiority over traditional ways of warfare. In our opinion, countering these unmanned systems will be a big opportunity on a global scale. And Astra is very hopeful of demonstrating expert anti-drone systems next quarter. We are taking a systems integrated approaches, which still features being incorporated.
With the features being incorporated, I would say, around our main capabilities, which is identifying and [ starting ] base radar. Work is already on within the company for the next version of the anti-drone systems with much upgraded feature sets. So we hope that this capability will be a big driver for Astra going forward. Beyond the skies, as S.G. mentioned, we expect space to be equally critical in times of [ launch ] as well as in times of peace. Communication payloads, signal controls, reconnoissance capabilities, high-end optics, hyperspectral cameras, they will all find uses in agriculture, Internet penetration on a wider scale, effective communications, remote sensing as well as warfare.
So nanosatellites with custom usage to micro and large satellites will be a big market at scale. As S.G. mentioned, I'm glad to share that Astra's Board has decided to focus on satellite space in a significant manner. As you are already aware, Astra has had a sizable order book in the space segment, and we have been providing a significant communication systems used in our research satellite. We intend to offer complete satellite systems right from, hopefully, the design capability, to satellite bus, to the command, control, payloads, all under one roof. And as we speak, we are being joined by senior experienced professionals, who have been involved in satellite building since long time. We intend partnering with companies, both local and overseas, offering supplementary skill sets and intend being a one-stop-shop for all [ these ] satellite. Towards this, capital budgets have been allocated and a new 100% owned subsidiary has been incorporated, Astra Space Technologies Limited. We expect this new business line to start contributing to our numbers in a span of 2 years plus. We will share more as the plans are focalized further.
We -- personally speaking, we are all very excited by the growth prospects and our ability to be a significant player in the space, building on top of our capabilities. We will [indiscernible] upon a few other initiatives taking concrete space [Indiscernible] concrete shape at this point in time. We have identified a few potential acquisitions that will fill the gaps in our skill portfolio and augment our capability to emerge as a systems entity. We hope to consummate the first transaction over the next few months. So please watch this space for some more news on this area.
The other area for growth where we intend building up significantly on our core capabilities is our in-house MMIC division. As you are well aware, Astra is one of the few companies that has in-house MMIC design capability, which have helped us innovate and build newer products with newer and different form factors. We intend scaling up this business line significantly in the global marketplace by leveraging our MMIC design capabilities. We are also evaluating our various ongoing next-generation initiatives in line with their CapEx requirements and the time line needed to translate the efforts into meaningful numbers that can positively impact our bottom line.
And this is an ongoing process, but it has taken slightly more vigorous shape at this point in time. Efforts are being made to look at the programs where the bottom line impact can be very tangible in a defined time frame and prioritize a few programs while others will see a pushback, unless we can quantify their impact on our profitability in a defined time frame. Lastly, all this vision and growth, as exhibited in the numbers, will not be possible without the wholesome participation of the entire Astra family. Efforts are being devoted towards training our workforce, upskilling them, equipping them with newer skillset and ensuring that also becomes a place where the professional vision of our employees find fulfillment in an environment that challenges the employees to reach newer heights and also provide them the platform to deliver on their vision.
We can address these issues in detail as we go about, but happy to hand it over to -- back to the floor.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Amit Dixit from ICICI.
Congratulations for a good set of numbers. I have 2 questions. The first one is on the EBITDA margin in this quarter. So if I look at EBITDA margin, it is very healthy, possibly the highest EBITDA margin ever. Now it has a very low proportion of exports, like only at 20%. And of course, the space execution has picked up significantly in this quarter. So just wanted to get an understanding of what is the proportion of exports that we can expect in FY '25? Will it be closer to 20, 30, or -- I mean, higher than that? And also this space execution, if you could highlight? That is the first question.
Yes. Do you have a second question or you want us to answer this?
No, I have the second question. I can ask it together. So in the last call, you indicated that the final trials of SDR are scheduled in January and February. So I just wanted to get an update on that? These are the 2 questions.
See the final trials of SDR, I think, pushed to June, July. But things are moving positively. Coming back to the first question in terms of proportion of export sales in the next year projections. I think export sales will be close to about 20% to 25%.
Okay. So that means this kind of margins that we have made this quarter 28% and 28.5% or something that margin could be maintained? Or we should expect it to come down a bit?
We should be able to maintain in a 1-year cycle. Quarter-on-quarter, I do not want to comment. But we should be able to maintain on a yearly basis.
No, I'm asking only on a yearly base. So we should be able to maintain...
Yes, yes. We should be able to maintain. Yes.
Okay. And all the best.
The next question is from the line of Niraj Mansingka from White Pine Investment Management.
Sir, just wanted to know on the Sukhoi upgrade, what is the status? And how -- yes, just continue on that.
Can you please repeat? We are not able to get your question.
The question is on this Sukhoi MKI upgrade, what is the status of the government? And again, how many players are competing for that?
Yes. No, in fact, the status is the same like what we mentioned in the earnings call that the upgrades -- the DRDO is planning to upgrade both radar and [ AEW ] suite. Towards that, they started releasing some subsystems in EW suite, whereas in radar, they're yet to finalize the configuration. Hopefully, they'll finalize in next coming couple of months' time frame. And once they get this thing, probably they will start floating tenders.
Okay. But sir, has the radar supplier been confirmed? Or is it, again, yet to be decided by the government?
Well, to the information what we have is, basically, in principle, they given clearance to DRDO to build the radar, and budget is yet to be allocated, I guess. But as such, the configuration is being finalized at DRDO. So not sure exactly like how they're proceeding it. But as of now, DRDO is trying to build the radar, and they will try to identify industry partner to do this.
Okay. And how many players do you think would be competing on this because -- will -- and will this be a transfer of technology? Or will it just a showcase of technology workplace?
No. As I said, this is too early to comment on that. And unless they finalize the configuration, we cannot comment on this. As far as the industry is concerned, we have -- as you know, there are about 2 to 3 industries are there in this race. And more may come. It all depends on what kind of a configuration the DRDO finalizes.
Okay. And last question on the time line. Is there any thoughts of your when it should be decided by the government?
I didn't get your question.
Any time line thoughts you have at when the government should be deciding or where do you think -- you think is ultimate time when decision should be made?
We don't have any information on this.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Santanu Chatterjee from Mount Intra Finance Private Limited.
Congratulation for a good set of numbers. My first question is on, sir, major opportunities on your different platforms, which you have already depicted in your quarter 2 presentation. But strangely, this time around, that -- in this latest presentation, it is missing. In different platforms, you have depicted in FY '24 major opportunity size is more or less INR 4,000 crores. INR 2,060 crores is from radar segment and INR 2,000 crores from the [ systems ] itself. Can you explain, sir -- or can you give some kind of guidance that what is the present status of those orders? Or when this kind of the opportunities from different platforms get converted into the form orders?
Yes. There are various platforms, which we indicated in the presentation. I'm not sure whether it was included or not at this time. But it is same as the last quarter, not much of change. So we have our presence in Uttam, which is going for production. As you know, HAL is producing the radar. So 50% of the quantity they have earmarked for the indigenous version, that is Uttam, wherein we are supplying AAAU.
And then second is the upgradation for LCA Mark 1. That is -- LCA Mark 2, also, DRDO is planning to go for radar. And that also, we are likely to compete with other players. As when the gentleman mentioned about [ 2 30 ] is also is coming out in the near future, wherein we have to compete with other industry players for the radar and the AEW segments.
And in LCA Mark 1, we are also there in ASPJ [ Pod ] Jammer, wherein we are the only source as of now for that Pod -- unit. In that, we are supplying AATRU. And other platforms like [ AEW&C ], which we have mentioned AWACS, which 2 programs that have been sanctioned, one is on Mark 2 and another one is Mark 1A. We are there in both the platforms. We were -- we have supplied originally the subsystems for Mark 1 about 5 years back. Now Mark 1A is also being sanctioned. So we are likely to expect good amount of business from that.
Similarly, Mark 2, DRDO is finalizing the configurations soon. So there, we have a competition. We have to compete with other players. It all depends like how these tenders get [ result ]. But otherwise, we have good opportunities for us to work on this domain. And in the ground segment, we have various platforms like weapon locating radar and also TLR, which is a radar for Akash version. And also, we are working for [indiscernible] and then other major programs called like Akash Ng. These are all other programs, which we have been supporting to BEL.
Then coming to missile platforms, we are there in Akash and Akash-NG as well as Akash Prime, then Astra missile, and also [indiscernible] Akash-NG missile. In all these missiles, we have subsystems. And as far as EW is concerned, we are there in more or less in many platforms, which BEL is being produced, like Shakti, Imeshakti, Dharashakti, Varuna, all these platforms, we have been supplying subsystems. And yes, that's all, these are the major programs in defense sectors.
In space, we have products for [indiscernible] which are in production right now, and we are expecting repeats for similar payloads in near future. And apart from that, we are building our own satellite payloads as well as in the satellites to address this particular market segment. And in metrology, we supply automotive weather station and as well as remote terminals. These are all major projects, which we have been supplying to IMD and all. The other one, which not covered is, Doppler Weather Radar, which we supply to IMD and also ISRO. We're working in various frequency bands. So far, more than 15 have been installed and commissioned.
Yes, these are all some of the major programs, which I think we have highlighted in last earning call.
Yes, sir, thanks a lot for your elaborate information about those programs. But what I am looking for, sir, in FY '24, you have given specific time line that within FY '24, what kind of major opportunities can emerge from those sectors, like you have mentioned over there that from BEL, Arudhra medium-power radar or from DRDO long-range radar, [ LFM ] radar. And as you have mentioned right now, AEW&C, 11 airborne early warning and control radars. The order you have envisaged to the tune of INR 2,060 crores within FY '24. So I'm actually asking that what is the present status and whether you are getting those orders and how much is actually convertible into the farm orders?
Yes. Against that INR 2,000 crores or less. We -- as I mentioned, we are likely to book INR 1,300 crores worth of orders for FY '25, and which covers Arudhra, then [ AEWC ] program and also the long-range radar, which we are trying to get from DRDO.
Okay. And another last one and sir, from System itself, you have also mentioned over there that from Indian Armed Forces, you were envisaging a more or less INR 2,000 crore order in a program like counter unmanned aerial system. What is the current status of that program, sir?
Yes. As Mr. Atim Kabra had mentioned in the initial remarks that our counter drone radar is almost finally ready and the internal trials are going on. We are likely to launch this product in the next quarter. We have form RFPs, RFIs on hand. And most likely, by FY '26, we may conclude some of the contracts for this particular system.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Abhijit Mitra from Aionios Alpha Investment Management.
I have a couple of questions. First of all, regarding the AEW&C Mark 1A, I think next week is the expected AoN. So what can be the potential order value that you will be bidding for? Or will this be a bid or this will be like a nomination tender for you?
We don't want to comment at this stage in this forum, Mr. Abhijit. I think this is a bit confidential, so we wanted to keep it, this information...
No worries, no worries. And INR 1,300 crores of order inflow guidance for FY '25, you mentioned 3 projects. I mean those 3 projects will be like, what, 60%, 70% of the total INR 1,300 crores? Or it is like a long tail or I mean...
Yes. Actually, out of INR 1,300 crores, they're close to INR 1,000 crores from these major programs, defense and electronic warfare put together. And the rest is from space and the metrology sector.
Got it. Got it. Got it. And just to understand the revenue guidance of INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,100 crores, what kind of execution are you factoring in, in terms of projects, which are the major projects which you feel...
Yes, FY '25, as we have given guidance of INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,100 crores, in that the major projects, like 1 is that Arudhra, we have taken one -- 20% of the contract for the execution. And the other programs, which we already have orders on hand, that is contains subsystems for various programs. And also a few radars like [ HISAR, APS radar, MRTR ]. These are all contracts which we already received in this current year and then -- which are in the execution phase.
So similarly, in electronic warfare, we have received close to about INR 150 crores worth of orders, which we are going to execute in the next financial year. Similarly, the telemetry/missile about INR 140 crores. In the [ exports front ] I think, close to INR [ 250 crores ] we are planning to execute in the next financial year.
Sorry, I missed your last statement. In the Air Force, you mentioned, what, sorry?
Exports, INR 250 crores plus.
INR 250 crores. Got it. Got it. Also, just to understand you raised money in May, June. So why have the interest costs gone up in this quarter?
Yes. Basically, you have to look at the breakup for that. It is not entirely the expenditure incurred on interest. There is another accounting treatment as per the accounting standard. The advances received from the customers, if they're outstanding for more than 1 year, we have to make a provisional entry in the books of accounts as interest payable to -- interest payable and advances. And credit, we deferred revenue account, which is required as per accounting standard. That entry constitutes about INR 9 crores out of the INR 19 crores or INR 20 crores whatever is there. Otherwise, my interest charge for the working capital borrowings should actually come down compared to the corresponding quarter of previous year.
And the interest that you have applied on advances because of some slow-moving orders or...
No, no, no. See there's an according standard, where if the advances from the customers is outstanding beyond 12 months period, then we have to make a notional entry in the books of accounts. Okay. We have advances received both from the export orders and also a couple of DRDO labs and SAC. So those advances are outstanding for more than 1 year. Though as per the contract, we are not liable to pay. But as per the accounting standard, it is mandatory and hence, a notional entry is booked in books of account.
There will be a reversal also eventually.
Reversal as and when the contracts are executed and advances are nullified.
Okay. Got it. Got it. And this will be a recurring feature from now on? Or what kind of provision yearly that you're looking for? INR 19 crores yearly provision or...
It all depends what kind of advances are going into outstanding books of accounts. We have to wait and see.
Okay. Got it. Got it. Last question, any supply chain challenges, which you are facing now, which may impact the margin profile or execution next year you see?
Yes, a little bit are there, 1 or 2 critical parts. But otherwise, to a large extent, it got resolved.
Okay. So those gallium nitride and all those things have not sort of materialized in a way which could impact?
No, no. There's [indiscernible].
The next question is from the line of Ketan Gandhi from Gandhi Securities.
Sir, in opening remarks, you said something about satellite integration. Can you please throw some more light on that exactly what we are planning to do there?
Yes. We are building satellite for -- earth observation satellite [indiscernible] based on particular requirement. And there, in fact, the payloads for that particular satellite is being already made by our space unit in Hyderabad. This new facility, which we have initiated in Bangalore, is going to be integration of the complete satellite. So that -- observations satellite and also the -- in future, all kind of a communication satellites, we are planning to build in that particular facility.
So more or less, we will be the -- in the role of system integrator. Is it my understanding right? Or we are into subsystems also in there?
We are basically a system integrator and we are building our own system using our subsystems, whatever payloads we have been developing for ISRO. Using that, we are trying to build our own satellite. And we are going to supply to the users. We are not going to operate, and we are not going to emerge as an operator. We are only going to be [indiscernible] contracts, we are going to build satellites.
Perfect, sir. And sir, in Akash-NG program, what value addition we are doing? Is it the seeker or some kind of microwave system -- subsystems apart from the older version?
See this Akash-NG seeker is DRDO design seeker, wherein BEL, I think, they are manufacturing it. We have components in that -- microwave components. Apart from that, we have 1 more component, which is going to replace the imported transmitter. So that is one of the major subsystems, which has flown in the recent trials and which was test fired successfully.
So we are alone there, right? Nobody -- no competition there?
We have more 1 more player, 1 more player. As of now, we have 1 more company is there.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Abhishek Poddar from HDFC Mutual Fund.
Congratulations on good quarter. Sir, if you could elaborate more on the LCA Mark 2, whether we'll be involved in the design phase itself or our role will come later on?
Well, I think DRDO will design that -- the radar. And then after that, I think we'll start participating in that program.
Okay. So we would get a production order. We would not get a development order like that, is it?
Yes. Actually, the development orders, like, who gets a development contract, they'll get production orders.
Okay. And we would be competing to even get that development order. So how many players would be there? And what are the scope of work that we could be getting?
Right now, I can't comment how many companies are going to compete in this. But definitely, we have a competitive edge compared to the others as we have been involved in this similar class of radars and all. But beyond that, I'm not in a position -- I cannot tell you about how many companies are going to compete.
Okay. Right. And sir, the -- there was a big AON, which was DSE had approved in November like it was INR 2.3 lakh crores. And there was a new scope, which was included, let's say, 97 LCA Mark 1, probably is new. So if I look at your presentation in terms of opportunity size, which you had shown about INR 7,000 crores till 2028. Shouldn't we assume that, that should also increase because of the new AONs coming in? How to think about that?
Yes. Actually, to be frank, when we have given that figure -- overall figure, this 97 was not included. And this 97, like it's additional thing for the INR 7,000 crores what we have mentioned. But at the same time, if you look at some of the programs that are likely to get delayed beyond FY '28, so we are taking as a buffer for that.
Okay. Understood. And when you share the presentation, you mean that the total potential is 25 where our win rate could be INR 7,000 crores or so?
I didn't get you. Come again?
Sorry, in the presentation, when you are showing the market potential for your products till '28, there are 2 slides. One shows 27 -- INR 24,000 crores, INR 25,000 crores as the total opportunity and another INR 7,000 crores, INR 7,500 crores. So your sense there is that the total market size would be INR 25,000 crores or so and your wins could be about INR 7,000 crores and all?
Yes, yes. So this total addressable market is around INR 25,000 crores what we have indicated. And again is that we are likely -- in that, we have mentioned about the -- some of them are proprietary in nature and some of them are in limited competition and a few of them are in open competition. So in all 3 categories put together, we have given about INR 8,000 crores around order pipeline -- order book for this next 4 years' time frame.
All right. And sir, in the Brahmos, would you be present anywhere like in seekers or transmitters and all?
No. We are not in the Brahmos seekers. Only telemetry, we are there in Brahmos, which is, of course, the quantities are very less as compared to the seekers. But telemetry, we have been supplying. And there's another product called altimeter, which they were importing all along. Now this recently our product has been tested in lab. And I think soon they'll go for prices. Once it gets approved, I think we will have a good number of altimeters for the future production.
Right. Understood. And just on the margins, last question for me. Your EBITDA margin is about 29% and PBT is about 24%. So when you said last -- next year is 15% to 18%. This quarter would have something exceptional in 28% EBITDA margin. I missed it if you have already answered it, sorry.
See these margin movements on a quarterly basis is very dynamic. It all depends on the specific products that have been executed in that particular quarter. Therefore, on a yearly basis, what we have mentioned is about 16% to 18% PBT levels.
Okay. Understood. And that would assume the export mix at 20%, 25%?
Yes, yes.
The next question is from the line of Niraj Mansingka from White Pine Investment Management.
Sir, what role would we be playing in AWACS project for the government?
What is our role in AWACS program?
Well, we supplied RF and microwave components in the AEW&C program in the -- for the primary radar like T/R multi-module unit, antenna beam forming unit. These are a few products which we have supplied the AWACS program in the past. And the next program also, we are there in the race.
Sir, any thoughts on what is the size of that next program? And when can it be implemented?
Well, it's not in our hands, though the project got sanctioned long term back and AEWC Mark 2 RFPs will be out soon. I think that's what we expect from DRDO. And then Mark 1A I think may take another year time frame.
Okay. But sir, in the AWACS, has the government finalized how many they will make or it is just not clear right now?
No, it's clear. Actually, Mark 1A, I think, is about 6 numbers have been cleared. And I think they are going ahead.
Okay. But that order is not yet out, right?
Orders. [indiscernible]
Yes. Okay. And so would we be -- how many players would be competing for that -- in the AWACS components?
Yes, see, let's not getting to too much of specifics. But as I said, we are into primary radar subsystems as well as we have a few subsystems for the secondary radar. So overall, our contribution in the radar segment would be around 40% to 45%.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Vipul Kumar A. Shah from Sumangal Investment.
So just one clarification. Our order book is inclusive of our joint venture with Rafale? Or that is -- that -- the order is not included in it?
Which order book you're referring? That INR 1,813 crores, which we have mentioned is stand-alone.
Yes. Yes. It is stand-alone or it is inclusive of our joint venture?
No, no. It is stand-alone.
So what is that order book of our joint venture with Rafale?
It's about INR 540 crores for joint venture.
Okay. Okay. It's a 50-50 joint venture, right, sir?
Yes, yes.
And sir, my second question is regarding the BTP versus BTS. So can you comment on the margins in both the segments? And what is our revenue share in terms of percentage from both segments?
See, in BTS, usually, this is the main area of our operations, where we take the business from or users like DRDO and other labs to develop a subsystems and all. So that is the BTS, which we have been working for the last 30 years, right from components to the systems. And whereas in BTP, we are taking up these orders to fulfill the offset obligations from the foreign players. And in BTS case, usually, our margins, it depends like competition and also based on the kind of business volumes and the size of the business.
So usually, it operates like between we work with 42%, 45%. And whereas in BTP, again, we have 2 categories in that. One category is where we have a more value addition, which includes the debugging of failures and kind of a thing. And the other on is pure like assembly and testing area, where we have low margins, there value addition is less. But in the other category of BTP, which we have been working, where our margins are a little higher, it's about 20% to 25%.
So in our revenue share, what should be the percentage of BTS and what should be the percentage of BTP?
Now actually, this -- next year, FY '25, as we mentioned, our overall exports would be around 22% to 23% around that. And in that, the BTP will be close to 18%.
So domestic is 100% BTS?
Yes. Domestic is 100% BTS.
The next question is from the line of Colonel Sarjeet Yadav from Mount Intra Finance Private Limited.
Firstly, congratulations for a good result. Just one question, in case you can give some color on the space opportunity. As I understand that, as of now, it is 1 product which is SAR payload. Any other opportunity we see? And how much time do we see it getting commercialized? These are 2 questions.
Well, we are working on that, SAR payload. We got technology transfer from ISRO. And we are trying to build payload based on the technology. Right now, it is in the optimization phase. May take 2 more years for us to build this particular payload and to offer to the radar imaging satellite programs.
So any other product in the space segment that which we are targeting, sir?
Yes. We have a few clients who are working for this kind of remote sensing satellites. We've been discussing with them. So I think, probably, we are in a position to offer solutions to them.
As there are no further questions from the participants, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you, gentlemen, for your participation. And I look forward to see you again at the end of Q4. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Astra Microwave Products Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for