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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Salzer Electronics Limited Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.I now hand the conference over to Ms. Deepika Murarka from Choice Equity Broking. Thank you, and over to you, Deepika.
Thank you, Nirav. Good morning, everyone. On behalf of Choice Equity Broking, welcome to the Q4 and FY '23 post results conference call of Salzer Electronics Limited. This conference call may contain certain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinion and expectations of the company as of the date of this call. These statements are not guarantee of future performance and involve certain risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict.I will now hand over the call to Ms. Savli Mangle to discuss the financial performance of the company. Over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Deepika. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today to discuss the audited financial performance for the fourth quarter and year ended March 31, 2023. I have with me Mr. Rajesh Doraiswamy, Joint Managing Director; Mr. Murugesh, Joint Company Secretary; [indiscernible], GM Account; Mr. Sanjay, Assistant Company Secretary; and Mr. Raman, COO of Kaycee Industries.I shall take you through the stand-alone financial performance of the fourth quarter and the year ended. During the fourth quarter, our revenues increased by 29% year-on-year to INR295 crores from INR228 crores in the previous corresponding period. This growth was driven by higher demand for industrial switchgear, as well as wires and cable businesses. The EBITDA, excluding other income, was INR23.3 crores in Q4 as against INR12.9 crores in Q4 FY '22, a year-on-year growth of 81% on account of increased sales in the switchgear business.The EBITDA margin for the quarter stood at 7.9%, were a rise of 224 basis points year-on-year. This was mainly on account of increase in sales from higher-margin industrial switchgear products. The profit after tax was at INR9 crores in Q4 FY '23 as against INR3.8 crores in Q4 FY '22, year-on-year growth of 134%.Coming to our full year financial performance, in the year ended March 2023, net revenue was INR1,013.1 crores as against INR783.6 crores in FY '22, year-on-year growth of about 29%. This was driven by strong demand for almost all products on the back of better market conditions, both the India and global markets. The EBITDA, excluding other income, stood at about INR91.1 crores in FY '23 as against INR63.8 crores in FY '22, a year-on-year growth of 43%, mainly on account of higher sales in all product divisions. The EBITDA margin was at 9%, a year-on-year increase of 86 basis points. The profit after tax was INR36.4 crores in FY '23 as against INR22.5 crores in FY '22, a year-on-year growth of 62%. The PAT margin was at 3.6% in FY '23, as against 2.9% in FY '22, a year-on-year increase of 72 basis points.Moving to the breakup of revenue as per business division. The industrial switchgear business contributed to about 53.4% of the total revenues in this quarter and 54.3% during the year. The EBITDA margin for this business stood at 10.5% in Q4 and 11.7% in FY '23. One of our high-demand products, the three phase dry type transformers grew over to nearly 300% year-on-year in Q4 FY '23 and 180% in FY '23. The wire harness grew 52% year-on-year in Q4 FY '23 to INR23.5 crores from INR15.4 crores in Q4 FY '22 and 18% year-on-year in FY '23.The wires and cable division contributed nearly 41% to our revenues this quarter and 38% during the year. That is an increase of nearly 19% year-on-year in this division during the quarter and 15% year-on-year. The EBITDA margin in this division has been steady at 5.5% in Q4 and 6.5% for the full year. The Building Products division contributed nearly 6% in this quarter and 7% in the full year. The EBITDA margin in this business was 2.6% in Q4 and 2.7% in full year FY '23.On the export front, we continue to see steady growth, mainly due to higher sales in Americas, including South American countries like Brazil, Argentina and Chile. Exports to the Americas grew 55% year-on-year this quarter. For this quarter, the export share of the revenue was 27%. Growth in export was nearly 73% year-on-year and 18% quarter-on-quarter. For the full year, export was 26% of the revenue growing 42% year-on-year. I'm happy to share that the Board has recommended a final dividend at the rate of 22%, that's INR2.2 per equity share at a face value of INR10, this is subject to shareholders' approval.I would like to hand over now to Rajesh to take us through the business developments and the leadership. Thank you.
Thank you, Savli. Good morning all of you. I think we have listened to the financials division wise from Savli. So the past financial year actually brought a lot of headwinds for the economy and the overall industry in the form of various macroeconomic factors like increased inflation, exchange rate fluctuations, even reduced demand from the European markets and also some of the Asian markets. Despite that, I think Salzer has crossed various important milestones during this period.And the most important one was that we have crossed the INR1,000 crore revenue milestones by achieving INR1,037 crore on revenues on a consolidated basis. This was possible only due to our advanced engineering capabilities backed by a strong in-house manufacturing and R&D team, product innovation, strong technical collaboration and long-standing customer relationship. So I'm once again very happy to share that our revenues for the year crossed INR1,000 crore, which was one of the key targets we have set for ourselves a few years ago. We are proud of this accomplishment, which is a testament to the hard work and dedication of our team.I would also say that this is just one step in our overall growth story. As you all must have been aware, demand for the infrastructure has been growing well in the country in the last financial year. There's a growing demand for a lot of projects such as roads, bridges, buildings, government's focus on smart cities development is also expected to spur demand for a lot of electrical products of our portfolio. Even the private investments continue to happen in a big way in India, which is also increasing the demand for all our products. There's increasing demand for renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and hydropower, which has opened new growth opportunities and demand for switchgears, transformers, wires and cables.During the year, we have seen good growth in all divisions, mainly due to better market conditions in India and also abroad in specific markets. On the switchgear front, growth was driven by high-margin products like toroidal transformers, three phase transformers, wire harness, rotary cam switches and isolators. All these comprised approximately 65% of our Switchgear division sales. To cater to the continuous demand that's coming from the country, we have set up a new manufacturing facility strategically located at Hosur in Tamil Nadu.Speaking of our wires and cable division, there was a slowdown in the first 3 quarters due to high inflation and slowdown in the agri market segment, leading to lower volume sales in the first 3 quarters. However, in the fourth quarter, the sales started to pick up, and we see similar demand continuing into this year. Over the last 2 quarters to 3 quarters, we increased our sales price for various products. At the same time, the raw material prices also started to stabilize and reduce a little bit, which helped improve our EBITDA margins year-on-year. We also expect to reduce the raw material consumption in the coming quarters, which will further improve the realization of our price, which leads to better EBITDA margins in the coming quarter.On the export front, 26% of our revenue this year came from exports, mainly on account of higher sales in North America and also South America. Some of the new products that we developed for U.S.A. and Australia during COVID time has started to give revenues from March 2023 onwards. This year, we will see revenues from these new businesses coming. As far as our subsidiary, Kaycee Industries is concerned, the sales have been growing well, and EBITDA margins are also getting better. Kaycee's top line grew 42% to INR42.3 crore from INR29.8 crore last year. PAT grew 87% from INR1.86 crore last year to INR3.5 crore this year.At Salzer, we have continued to focus on improving our operational efficiency. We had an internal target of achieving 12% ROCE in FY '23, which we have achieved this year. We also improved our net debt to equity for FY '23 at [ 0.65% ]. I'm happy to share that the net cash flow from our business operation was positive at around INR23 crores.Going to the next fiscal, we expect to grow at around 20% with our strong product offerings and brand position in the market. Based on the domestic and export outlook, we are cautiously optimistic about the overall business performance. As a part of our strategy, we will continue to not just focus on profitable growth, but also on capital efficiency, enduring to improve our working capital cycle and being a cash flow positive company continuously.I thank the entire team at Salzer Electronics for their untiring efforts and all our stakeholders for their continued support and faith in our company. This is all from our side for now. I would like to thank you all very much for your time and attention. We can now take questions.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of [ Rabindra Nath Nayak ] from Sunidhi Securities and Finance.
[Audio Gap] for a decent set of numbers. So my question is regarding this how the capital allocation, we have done rightly around INR23 crores of operating cash flow this year. And also we have actually gone through a preferential issue, which will yield around INR47 crores of money to the company. And going ahead also, you are expecting 20% growth on our business and also going for capital efficiency. While the capital allocation policy -- how we are going to spend this money in the next 1 year or 2 years' time? So please share some perspective on that?
Sir, thank you very much. I think the point is that we will be doing some capital expenditure because we have set up a new facility in Hosur, which will take up around INR14 crores, INR15 crores of investment for further growth. And I think going forward, we also have the joint venture for electric vehicle charging stations coming up. Hopefully, that will require some investments. I think we have not really allocated how much we are going to put in, but we expect that the electric vehicle charging station, JV will take at least INR12 crores to INR15 crores in the next couple of years. So this is what we will be allocating and the rest will be utilized for the working capital in the company.
Okay. Okay. Sir, can you please provide a product-wise breakup of the Switchgear business, because a lot of things are completely jumbled together in one segment. If you can give at least 2 to 3 products category, which will contribute into the business, in the Switchgear business, that would be helpful?
I think I mentioned in the call that our top selling products, 65% of our sales comes from the toroidal transformers, three phase transformers, rotary switches, wire harness and isolators.
Okay. Okay.
These are the top selling switchgear products for us.
Okay. Okay. And sir, when we can expect that the complete integration of Kaycee, even though we acquired 100% shareholding in our business, when we can expect on that?
So we are only at 74% shareholder at Kaycee. And as far as the operations are concerned, we are fully integrated. The company has worked together and are achieving the efficiency by utilizing each other's strengths. And that is why we see a tremendous improvement in PAT margins at Kaycee Industries.
So can we expect 100% holding in Kaycee in the near future or will we continue in the similar structure for quite some time?
At 100% holding, then we have to delist. No, we are -- there is no plan for that as of now.
Okay. Okay. And sir, in the product category, industrial switchgear, wires and cable, building segments, if you can give a breakup of -- appropriate margin breakup of -- EBITDA margin breakup of all these 3 categories, that would be helpful, sir, for FY '23?
Yes. I think the EBITDA percentage for industrial switchgear for this year is at around 11.7%, Wire and Cable is at 7%, and the Building segment is at 3%.
[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of Senthilkumar from Joindre Capital.
Firstly, congrats for the good set of numbers. In the opening commentary, you have highlighted that you have developed new products for North and South America. Can you elaborate what is the product, and what is the revenue we can expect for FY '24?
Sir, I think this year, we have grown close to 30%, which is actually a strong growth, I would say. Going forward, we are projecting around 20% growth for -- on the top line. And on the bottom line, we should be growing at around 25%.
Okay. No, actually, my question is about the new product development in North and South America. Now I'm asking on what is the incremental revenue we can expect from that particular...
Okay, about the new products?
Yes. Yes.
Okay. These products are -- so I mean the potential for these products are quite high. But we expect -- I think in the first year, we will be seeing a revenue of close to USD1 million to USD2 million in U.S.
Okay.
But the potential, we expect that in the next 5 years, we should be able to clock around [ $20 million, $25 million ] sales only in these products from the North American market.
Okay. Okay. So what is the product, sir? Is it switchgear or...
They are contactors for various applications in U.S. Contactors.
Okay, okay, contactors. Okay, sir. And my second question, in the earlier con call, you said like for EV conversion kit, we are developing a prototype, where are we, sir, what is the update on that?
I'm afraid that I don't have any new update because as I mentioned in the last call, I think we are going slow on that conversion kit project because we are not seeing much potential -- sales revenue potential or profit potential in that product and technology. So we are actually going slow, though we are doing some research and prototyping, but I don't have an update that to be -- that needs to be given right now.
Okay, sir, what about this charger unit, sir, EV charger?
Chargers in the final stage, I think it's under testing. So we should be launching the chargers mostly in the second quarter of this year for sale.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Gaurav Sachdeva ] from [ Further ] Investments.
So my question is regarding the EBITDA margins. In comparison to Q3, despite of our revenues have increased in both the segments, but the EBITDA has dropped more than 200 basis points. What is the reason, sir?
I think in the Switchgear business, it's because of the product mix. What happened was I think we had tremendously higher sales coming in Q4 in wire harness and three phase transformers, which has actually pulled the EBITDA margins by close to 200 basis points. That's one. On the Wire and Cable, again, I would say it's a mix of product and various sectoral sales that has happened. But this is only a quarterly change. Overall, I think we are seeing a 200 basis point improvement year-on-year, and we will continue to see at least 100 basis point improvement over the next financial year in all segments.
But in your last -- yes. In your last con call somewhere you told that maybe we can have 11% EBITDA on overall basis?
Yes. We are getting there. As you see that we have improved 1% compared to last year. We will definitely get to around 10%, 10.5% next year, and we'll reach 11% -- blended 11% in the next few -- 5 quarters, 6 quarters.
Next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.
Hello. Am I audible?
Yes, sir, you can. Yes.
Yes. Sir, I just wanted to understand, I mean, in terms of the previous question on the margin front, I think what has changed? Because I mean, earlier, we were targeting 11% EBITDA margin FY '24. So is there anything that has changed in terms of our -- the raw material scenario or the pricing scenario, which kind of has pushed back our target to maybe, what, 1.5 years now we are targeting right as compared to...
Nothing major has changed. As we all know that FY '21, FY '22 was a very, very tough year for all the businesses due to this post-COVID scenario, where raw material prices increased tremendously over the year and fluctuating widely. So overall, if you see our Switchgear business's EBITDA margins dropped drastically. I think we used to be at around 13%, 14% EBITDA margin levels in our switchgear products, which considerably dropped to around 9% -- 9.5% in FY '22 because of the raw material price fluctuations. So which we gradually started improving in FY '23, and we are at around 11.7% as of today.The one thing that has changed is, I think the raw material price has stabilized, and we have got our price increase from our customers. I think that has happened. But also during the course of the year, we have seen a slight change in our product mix, which is giving the revenues to Switchgear business. So the more the transformers that sell, then I think the blended margin inside the Switchgear business will be slightly down compared to what we will sell more of the contactors or switches and terminal blocks and things like that.So there is a slight change in the EBITDA margin within the Switchgear businesses. There are certain products like rotary cam switches or isolators or cable ducts that can give us 17% EBITDA or 16% EBITDA. And there are also certain products like wire harness or three phase transformers or toroidal transformers, for example, which will give us 11% or 12% EBITDA. And also, sometimes we sell into certain sectors where we are new, where we have to get the business. So then the price we have to be competitive and the EBITDA margins in those sectoral sales also can be a little down.So that is the reason that we have not gone to 12%, 12.5% EBITDA margin, but we are at around 11.7% this year. And overall, we couldn't get to 10%, but we are at around 9%. But I'm sure that we are seeing a jump in the absolute numbers. I would say, year-on-year, there's an 80% jump on the absolute EBITDA number from INR63 crores to INR92 crores. And we will see -- we will continue to see similar growth going forward, and we will improve the EBITDA margin percentage also going forward, because I see a lot of stabilization in the raw material prices, and we will definitely improve on the switchgear EBITDA margins by around at least 1% in the year that's coming, the next year.
Okay, understood. But in terms of switchgear segment, so currently, about 65% of your switchgear revenue cater -- is catered by high-margin product in this division?
Actually, all the switchgear products, I would consider it as high margin, but within that high margin, there are differences. There are certain 11%, 11.5%, there are certain 15%. So this combination is what is bringing a 12% EBITDA margin to us right now.
Okay. Okay. I understood. Fair enough. And in terms of your outlook that you have shared, now in terms of -- even if I take 10%, 10.5% EBITDA margin next year, so your bottom line should grow much faster than 25% that you are kind of given as a guidance as such. Is that -- because even if you take 10%, it should grow much faster than 25% bottom line?
Yes, I think it will grow -- it will have a similar growth, I would say. We will see at least a 35% EBITDA absolute number growth for 35%, 40%.
Correct.
But just being a little conservative, let's see how the first 2 quarter goes, and then we can have a real projection for next year because the markets are still, I would say, little fluid. People are a little conservative. Though the Indian market is growing well, but we don't know how the global headwinds is going to turn out in the next few months.
Correct. So any specific, I mean, concern that you have in terms of business or globally or anything that as a investor...
Globally, there is a financial risk that will -- that is -- that everybody thinks that is going to happen in the U.S., then if U.S. gets into a recession, then I think it will be a problem for the entire world market. Then we will see a short term, maybe a 2-quarter slowdown. If that doesn't happen, then I think we are good that we should be able to grow at the same level. Because even though we do a lot of business within India, I think those businesses are also dependent on various other foreign markets. There are a lot of private investments by the foreign company that is happening in India. There are a lot of others who export out from India. So which all may be affected.
Next question is from the line of Ankur Agrawal from RC Wealth Solutions.
[Foreign Language] CapEx plan [Foreign Language]?
CapEx plan, our regular maintenance CapEx we are doing. And as I said, we are having this Hosur plant investment, and the next CapEx will be for the EV chargers.
How much amount required for that CapEx?
Hosur, we have estimated at around INR15 crores in this year. And the next year, for EV chargers, it will be close to around INR15 crores again.
Okay. [Foreign Language]?
We are already doing business with railways. We are selling our switches and other -- various other switchgears and transformers to railways. And we are seeing constant business from railways, not great growth but constant business.
[Foreign Language]?
No, I didn't get your question because I'm not very good in Hindi. So if you can translate -- somebody can translate...
Next 3 years, 4 years, how much company will grow like how much top line and bottom line?
Sir, we expect to grow at around 20% for the next 2 years, at least, for sure.
Okay. And bottom line will be better than top line?
Yes. Yes.
Next question is from the line of Sanjay Kumar from ithought PMS.
First question is a very broad question on strategy, [ vision ] capital allocation. So you have toroidal transformers, wire harness, where you're putting up capacity, but you also have dry type transformer business, where peers like Voltamp, CG Power are putting up capacity, you have wires and cables, [ Kupper ] are putting up capacity, in fact Kupper is exporting a lot of cables to U.S., Australia. So without the scale in these segments, why you venture out? Is it because the base business growth is very slow or you want to move to other segments? So why is EV charging? Does it have any moat from the JV?And you were even looking at retrofitting or conversion kits for 3-wheelers. So I don't see lack of capability because we have you -- a license for many products in the U.S. So capability is not a constraint. Just that I don't see cognition and vision or long-term strategy. I maybe completely wrong. So if you could explain your thinking and rationale? And I'm just trying to think it through in terms of management bandwidth will be diluted in terms of EV charging and the retrofitting or do we have any moats in EV charging? So any thoughts on these lines, sir?
Yes, got your point, got your question. I think our total long-term vision is to be a global electrical solutions provider. I think that's what we are looking at. So anything to do with electrical solutions, we want to be there and we want to be a first mover. So that was one of the reasons we got into electric charging because we thought that I think that EV is going to be a future in the next 10 years, 15 years, at least a 2-decade business from now before the technology can change or whatever happens.So we thought we have all the capabilities, we have all the components that will go into a charger and why not we make a charger. And luckily, we got a JV partner to manufacture that, and that is how we are into that. That is the reason that we are into that. Conversion kit, maybe you rightly said, maybe it's a little deviation from us, and -- but as we ventured into that, we understood that, that business is not giving us scale or giving us a great opportunity. So we are scaling back on that, which we've -- I've already said in the previous 2 calls that we are scaling back and going slow on that conversion kit.But charging, yes, we have a reason for that because we can use our components, and we have the technology, and we can see that the future business is there, it's the future technology is there. And we -- as an electrical company, we want to be in that space. That's the reason we're doing that. On the other product expansion, as you know that we started off as a rotary cam switch company, that's how the company started 3 decades ago. And there is a limitation for a rotary cam switch within India or globally because the market size is limited. So -- and then we -- reason that we ventured out and started making various other different products is that we wanted to grow on scale and also be with the customer connect with many products.And that's how almost all the top switchgear companies across the world have grown, including Schneider, including Siemens or Eaton or even the Indian company like Larsen & Toubro or Havells, for example. L&T is a switchgear company, but they have 25 products within that switchgear segment. So that's how this business happens in the market, the business trend is like that. We actually went a little more diversified, started making transformers, wire harness and also various other products that may or may not fall under the switchgear definition, but it sells to the same customer.The same customer uses this. Sometimes we get a customer for rotary cam switch because of transformers or vice versa. So that's the advantage of having the large product portfolio and trying to expand all the products. And as you asked rightly, how and which [Technical Difficulty]. Hello? Am I audible?
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
You are audible.
Yes. So on how and which product you are going to expand, I think we -- as the opportunity comes, I think we are allocating capital and expanding capacity dynamically as the opportunity comes to us. I think last year was the year for three phase transformers because I think the growth in three phase transformers was close to 70%, 80% or 100% -- 250% actually year-on-year.So when the demand that came in, then we had to be dynamic and we had to expand the capacity and then we have to capture that market. So that was the reason that from INR25 crores in FY '22, I think we were close to around INR75 crores in FY '23 on that business. And it continues to -- I think the growth has slowed down, but it continues to grow at around 30%, 35% in this year. So that is how we manage the product portfolio within the segment. And on the scale about -- I think you mentioned 2 companies, Voltamp or CG, I think we are not in that space. I want to clarify our three phase transformers or dry type, indoor application transformers for low voltage, whereas Voltamp or CG makes oil-cooled or cast resin transformers for high voltage distribution transformers. We are not into that space.
Okay. I think Voltamp, 30% of their business is dry type. But anyways, just to...
Dry type high voltage. They are all 11 kV or 22 kV, those kind of transformers. We are only in 440 volt, less than 1,000 volt.
Yes, sir. So just 2 follow-ups there. So if dry type is growing so fast, any CapEx for wires and cables business or the dry type transformers? That's one. Two, what components in the EV charging, I mean, how much will we be making in-house and how much will be bought out in the EV charging product?
Around 30% of the value of EV charger will be in-house components.
Okay. Okay. And on the CapEx in dry type and wires and cables?
Yes. As I said, I think the wire and cable is a little different because we are not doing any major CapEx because we still have a capacity open in wire and cable. But dry type transformers, yes, we have done around INR4 crores, INR5 crores in this year on capacity expansion, and we will continue to do around INR3 crores, INR4 crores in the coming year for three phase dry type transformers. So not much, I think it is dynamic. As and when it requires, I think we will keep adding machineries for that.
And asset turn for dry type would be 6x, 7x?
It's right now at around 4x, 4.5x.
Okay. Okay, sir. Just last question, if I may. 5 years from now, what kind of product mix breakup are you looking at in the top line? Any rough figures?
The way that it goes looks like, I think we will be a 60-30-10 or -- that's how it is, 60% from the industrial switchgear business, 30% wire and cable, 10% from building electrical. That's how I'm looking at.
And EV charging will be part of?
EV charging will be a subsidiary. So that will be again, I think the business is still evolving. If it grows, I think it can give an equal amount of revenue.
[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of [ Manish Maheshwari ] from [ Manu ] Group.
Yes. Sir, you said you used to command a EBITDA margin of about 14-odd percent in your switchgear business, right, which eventually came down to 11% during COVID or...
It has actually come down to 9.5% last year.
Okay. So when do you expect margins to restore north of 14% or at least 14%?
That's what I said know, whether we will go back to 14%, I'm not sure because of the change in the product mix, because if you go back a few years, we didn't have transformers as a top selling product in the switchgear segment. We had all other products in the switchgear segment, which gave 15%, 14% EBITDA margin. When the volumes grew, I think we -- in my opinion, as from 11.5% right now, we may touch around 13% in next year -- FY '25, 13%, 13.5%.
FY '25 is an year after that, right, FY '24 and then FY '25?
Yes, FY -- I think we will see a 1%, 1.5% improvement year-on-year.
For the next year, you mean for FY '24?
FY '24, 1% to 1.5%.
And sir, if I may ask you, what are your -- I mean, your key raw materials?
Key raw materials, there is engineering plastics, you're talking about switchgear business, right?
Right.
Switchgear business, there is engineering plastics. We buy copper. We also have silver as a content, small content and then steel, PVC.
It's a combination of variable set of products, right?
Yes.
And how about...
These are the top product -- top commodities, I would say.
And how about wires and cable?
Wire and cable, it's copper and PVC.
Next question is from the line of [ R. Govindaraj ], Individual Investor.
Sir, can you throw some more light on the patents, which are in the process, sir? I think we are having some 6 products which are in process now.
Yes, I think there are certain products that we have applied patent for, like one the -- one for rotary switch, again, a new technology rotary switch we have applied patent. There are some contactors, some contactors, we have developed new, which we have applied patent for. And there is also a wire management, the cable ducts we call, but the broad name is wire management system, we have applied a patent for that. There are also new designs, new concepts, which we have applied patent for.
Any time line, sir, when you'll be getting it?
I think next 2 years to 3 years.
Okay, sir. And regarding -- you said that you are getting into new contactors, whether the bimetal kind of contactors we are making it in home or we are outsourcing it from other manufacturers, sir?
In the contactor, there is no bimetal. I think bimetal comes into play when there is a overload relay.
Okay.
So bimetals, we source out.
Source out. Okay.
Yes.
Any improvement can be seen in the wires business, sir, because Finolex Cables and other cable manufacturers are getting higher margins, whether any improvement can be done in our side?
Yes, sir. We are constantly working on that. Unfortunately, our segmentation in the wire and cable has been more into agri segment and we -- our distribution is through Larsen & Toubro. And that's the reason I think we -- and the agri segment is a seasonal market, so when it goes up and down, we are struggling. We are trying to bring down the dependency on that particular product segment, but it is taking time. I think it will take some more time before we see 8% to 10% margin improvements, 8% to 10% EBITDA margin in the wire and cable at least 2 years from now.
Okay. And regarding the supplies to LMW and LG, what sort of materials you are supplying to them, sir? If you can provide any details, sir?
We have custom-built control panels.
Control panels, okay.
Yes.
But 100% they are sourcing it from us or -- in case of LMW, you have [indiscernible]?
Any OEMs will always have 2, 3 suppliers. So we are just 1 of the 3, 1 of the 3 or 1 of the 2.
With regards to LMW or LG, sir?
Both.
Both.
Next follow-up question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.
Hello?
Hello. Yes, sir.
Yes. Sir, just one more thing I wanted to understand, how do you see the revenues scale up in your EV charging business? I mean, what sort of revenue we might target this year or -- and over next 2 years?
This year, I'm not projecting much because this is going to be the first year. We are expecting some sales back to our collaborator because of the demand that they are seeing in the European market. So that is one opportunity that we are looking at. And we are also looking at some opportunity within India, where there are companies who are doing charging services. So we -- once the chargers are ready, we are trying to sell our chargers to those companies who are installing and doing charging services.So this year, we are not really projecting much, but next year, I see that at least we should be able to do a INR40 crore -- INR35 crore, INR40 crore top line if everything goes well.
Okay.
But this business, I would say, is constantly evolving. It's quite fast. So I will not be able to tell next year whether only the sale of chargers will give us revenue or there will be any other opportunity that will be coming to us or maybe the company itself will get into a charging services business and how the revenue models will be in those kind of business, I think it is still a little fluid.
Correct, correct. And in the past, we had a vision of maybe what INR500 crores revenue from this segment, right? Is that still what we are targeting over the year?
Yes, I think it is still possible because we see that the demand for chargers will continue to grow as the electric vehicle starts coming in. So I'm definitely expecting FY '25, FY '26, the demand should be very good. A lot of companies should be getting into the charging space. And I'm still hopeful that INR500 crore revenue from EV charging space is not far away.
So maybe what 5 years is what the aspiration would be?
Even before that, even less than that, I would say.
Yes. Okay. Understood.
I think the speed at which the electric vehicle markets are growing, I would say, it can happen much faster.
Correct. Correct. Understood.
Next question is from the line of [ Sriram R ], Individual Investor.
I have 2 questions. One is, can you give the breakup of wires and cables segment, like how much is for copper and how much is for wiring harness for FY '23? And my second question is, where do these toroidal transformers go into, who are your customers? And if you can also talk a bit about your competition there, that would be very helpful?
You're talking about the sales revenue breakup for wire harness and wires and cables?
Yes. Out of wires and cables, how much is each of the subset?
That is totally different. Wire -- our wire and cable sale, I think we have done around INR390 crores last year. That INR390 crore is purely wires -- raw wires, cables to market, we sell it. And wire harness, we have done around INR70 crores last year, which is a product because we take the wire and we do a lot of process in that wire before we sell that to a OEM. Wire harness is sold to OEM, wires and cables are sold in the market to the retailer, to the dealer and to OEMs. So it's 2 different businesses. So that's around INR390 crores, and this is around INR70 crores. That's the breakup.
So that -- so this INR390 crores is purely copper wires, right?
Yes, copper. We only make copper wires. We don't make aluminum wires.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Understood, sir. And on the toroidal transformer...
Toroidal transformer is nothing but a transformer, a little different transformer, it can replace the normal transformers in the market. So any transformer -- a small transformer, I'm not talking about the large transformers on the roads, the distribution transformers. But these are small equipment transformers that you see inside a stabilizer, inside a UPS. That's a common equipment that I can cite, if you can see a stabilizer, a transformer inside a stabilizer, it's a stabilizer, which we can -- which a toroidal transformer can replace.A toroidal transformer is a little different in technology, which is high efficient. Sometimes the shape and size can be adjusted to suit the requirement of the customer. These things cannot -- it will be having low magnetic noise. These advantages will not be there in a normal EI core traditional transformer. So that's the difference between a traditional EI core transformer and a toroidal transformer. So the competition, I think there are hundreds of manufacturers of standard traditional transformers in the country.If you take toroidal transformers, there used to be very few, but now I think a lot of people have started making toroidal transformers also because the whole technology, I think people are converting from the EI core into toroidal transformers, because of the high efficiency and the advantages of flexibility in shape and size. That's the difference between toroidal and the transformers. And the application is wide application, medical equipments, any equipment, that's a toroidal transformer that is being used.
In that case, you will have a diverse customer base, right, for it -- for this transformer?
Yes, it's very large customer base, yes.
Okay. Okay. Can you name some, sir, few customers and toroidal transformers?
Yes. We think all the large OEMs, we supply, we supply to ABB, Schneider, Eaton.
Okay.
There are some petrol pump manufacturers to whom we supply transformers.
Next question is from the line of [ Anant Chaudhary ] from Electrum PMS.
My question is regarding this EV charging segment. So what would be the EBITDA margins in this segment, sir?
It's maybe a little too early for me to give a figure -- number on that. But I expect that it should be between 18%, 20%. Because it's a new technology product, there's not many players in the field. So I'm optimistic that it will -- should give us a 18%, 20% EBITDA margin.
Okay. Any number on the capacity volume wise, what is the capacity today we have?
We -- right now, we have 100 chargers per month. This is what...
100 chargers per...
Per month.
Okay. So we are saying that we will do INR500 crore revenue in this thing. So we are going to increase the capacity or we can do this with the existing capacity?
No. I think existing capacity, we can't go -- I think it can go around INR120 crores, [ INR150 crores ]. For INR500 crores, then we need to invest further.
Next question is from the line of Rohit Ohri from Progressive Shares.
Congrats on achieving this target of INR1,000 crore. And glad to hear that long-term shareholders like us are rewarded. Sir, a couple of questions. First of all, we did touch upon the contactors and the relays. So do you think that there is opportunity for Salzer in terms of China Plus 1 or Europe Plus 1? And if there are, then would you like to take us through that?
No. Rohit, thank you for your wishes. Yes, I think China Plus 1 is definitely working as an advantage to Salzer and our products, not just the contactors and relays, but overall, as a company, we are seeing -- as a company, as a country, we are seeing China Plus 1 as a plus. I think in the last 2 years, at least, we have seen so many companies who have approached us to -- given inquiries to buy products, particularly from the U.S. and the Australian markets.And also a lot of foreign companies who have set up facilities within India for manufacturing are also becoming our customers. So definitely, that is -- that's a continuing story. People want to derisk China and want to get into other manufacturing locations and also they're scouting for locations. And definitely, I think India is there at the top, along with, of course, other countries like Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia. So we are seeing growth because of that.
Okay. And any number would you like to put in terms of the client addition or maybe the clients who had gone and come back to Salzer and in terms of revenue?
So we have -- there's no client that has gone out and come back, but we have got new clients. As I said, the new products that we developed in the last 2 years for a couple of customers in U.S. have started seeing revenues in March. We -- I think this full year, we will see some [ $1.5 million ] revenues from those products from these 2 clients in U.S. and at least [ $1 million ] from Australia, New Zealand. So these are the new additions that we have got for this year.And I think this will definitely grow in the years coming FY '25 and FY '26. How much more new business you will get, if you ask me, that is something that I will not be able to judge and give a number now because the opportunities are coming. So I think we will continue to see good growth if this happens constantly and continuously. That's what I'm hopeful of.
Okay. Sir, we did speak about toroidal transformers and the dry type. And looking at the capacity, I think that we should be at 100% capacity. So are you looking at some debottlenecking that is happening in the plant currently?
I think this value engineering, debottlenecking is a constant work. So we are doing that constantly. The toroidal transformers or even three phase transformers or a rotary switch or any other switchgear contactor, I think the capacity expansion is quite dynamic. Since it's -- dynamic in the sense, what I mean is like as and when we see that we are touching 80%, 85% capacity utilization, and then we -- what we start is we start doing some small expansion and then try to bring it down to 65%, 70%. So that's how we have been going because we can't really go and do a 95% utilization in these machinery, the process and the way that the production is happening, it's a little bit complicated.So we will not be able to achieve a 95% capacity utilization like in a continuous process industry. It's not possible in this. So I think at the max, we will be able to achieve around 85% utilization. And then by that time, I think we'll start doing expansion.
Because we have ample of property, which is unutilized in one of the units, I believe, Unit 3 is having 1.5 acres of free land. So I was just gauging if at all, you have any more plants, because the demand is also increasing favoring Salzer and the products that we sell. So maybe...
Yes, yes, yes, land is available. So we can construct building as and when our existing space is fully utilized. So right now, since we have gone to Hosur, I think we would like to fill that up and see how that business grows and that unit gets full. And in the meantime, we are also filling up the spaces within our factories here, and we've continued to grow.
So the commercial production has started in Hosur because the presentation says that...
Yes, yes, yes, yes, in April, it started.
Okay. Okay. We did touch up a little bit on the solar sector and the opportunity there. So what sort of revenue can we anticipate because this is the new sector that people are looking at and...
Which one you're saying?
The solar sector.
Solar sector. Solar sector, we are not -- we are actually tied to indirect supply to solar renewables. Any solar inverter manufacturer or a solar park that is coming up means there are inverters being used and we supply components to those inverter manufacturers. And it's a windmill, then we supply components to Danfoss -- sorry, Enercon or Siemens Gamesa. These are the companies that we supply products to.So when we see a lot of demand coming for renewable power across the world starting last year. And we see good demand going in for the next 2 years in these products. in India as well as globally. So there are companies, large companies who make products for wind and solar, and we are suppliers to them.
Any number you'd like to put for the orders that we have for the solar?
I think we -- actually speaking, we are doing large quantity of 3-phase transformers for solar. So one of the main reasons that we have grown this 300% last year is, I would say, half of the business came from solar, so half of the growth came from solar. So I think that business continues. 3-phase transformers and wire harness will be the primary product that will be -- we will be selling to the renewable business.
Okay. Sir, one last one from my end. You did mention that in your opening remarks that you have just crossed the first step in the growth story of Salzer and that is growing demand. So is it fair to assume by '25, '26, you will be a INR1,500 crore company? And by '28, you should be targeting double of the revenue what we are at today?
I think over the last 10 years, we have given a 16%, 17% CAGR in sales and in the 5 years, 18%. Hopefully, we will continue to better that in the coming years.
Thank you very much. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rajesh Doraiswamy for closing comments.
Thank you, Choice, and thanks to all the stakeholders, investors who are here today in the call, taking so much interest and having faith in the company. Looking forward to meet all your expectations and looking forward to talk to you soon in the next call. Thank you all very much. You all have a great day.
Thank you very much. On behalf of Salzer Electronics Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.