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Intrinsic Value is all-important and is the only logical way to evaluate the relative attractiveness of investments and businesses.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. I'm Freesia, your operator today. Welcome, and thank you for joining the AT&S conference call for current business environment. [Operator Instructions]
I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Philipp Gebhardt.
Thank you, Freesia. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the AT&S Q1 2022/23 Conference Call. With us today are Andreas Gerstenmayer, CEO; and Peter Schneider, CFO; as well as Silvo Leitner, Head of Finance Department.
Mr. Gerstenmayer will start with a brief overview of the key developments of the fiscal year, followed by a market update from Mr. Schneider. Afterwards, Andreas Gerstenmayer will comment on the financial figures, our full year guidance as well as the midterm guidance. As Freesia mentioned, the presentation will be followed by a Q&A session.
Now I would like to hand over to Mr. Gerstenmayer, the floor is yours.
Thank you, Mr. Gebhardt, and a warm welcome from my side to our summer earnings call for the first quarter. And as you most likely have seen already from the presentation and the press release we have disclosed this morning, we had a record quarter again. So in very intense, interesting market environment, AT&S is, again, able to deliver to its promises. And I think this is a very strong sign from our team that is really motivated to deliver customers and stakeholders to their expectations.
So let's jump into the presentation. On the top line, you can already see a very, very strong development. Revenue increased by 58% to a level of EUR 503 million. Also nice to be mentioned here is that all the business segments are contributing to the growth.
We had also an outstanding strong EBITDA growth. It's almost 200% compared to last year's numbers. And I think this is the first quarter, and those who follow us for a while now know that typically, especially in the mobile device business, the first quarter is still the low season quarter. So it shows that we have gained a certain robustness in our business setup and business portfolio.
We have definitely some positive impact from foreign exchange rates. And we also still need to consider that in the environment we are operating, energy costs are increasing, still the supply chain is a challenge and transport cost is a challenge as well.
To stay on top with our technology development to create the necessary innovations for the future, we continue to strengthen our R&D activities. We are investing into the R&D center in Austria, but also the project in regards of technology development, platform development are continuously driven forward and that, for sure, is also certain investment into the future, into the future position of AT&S.
And so far, it's really paid off so that we can show that this is the right strategy, and Peter Schneider will touch on that later. The position of AT&S in the high-end, high-technology part of the market is the strength of the company and is differentiating ourselves. Capacity expansion projects are moving on. They are completely to our expectations. Chongqing III is well on track. Kulim is developing very nicely. And also the investment in Leoben, Austria is nicely progressing.
Another proof of resilience was the management of the lockdown in Shanghai. You remember, it's just a few weeks ago that we had 6 or 7 weeks lockdown in Shanghai. AT&S team was able to maintain operations on very high levels. They could support the customers to their expectations. And we received a lot of appreciation letters from the customers because we were one of those who could support them also in this difficult time and difficult environment successfully. And from the numbers, you see there is almost no impact to top and bottom line out of the lockdown in Shanghai.
And again, we confirm the guidance for the fiscal year 2022, 2023. I turn over to Peter Schneider to give you the overview about the latest market development now.
Yes. Hello. I would like to touch in particular 2 topics today. And this is the overall resilience of our market areas in smartphones as well as server and give you a little background.
Like Andreas has shown, we have confirmed guidance for this year and our midterm guidance. And there's a good reason for that, that we are very confident to achieve our target. First of all, in the smartphone market, we are all aware of the fact that on a new, highly elevated base in the consumer market, there are some uncertainties of global economics. And if you look at the smartphone market, in particular, we see overall for the whole market a small decline in the market.
But this is not true for the high end. And our external sources that we use suggest that this year, the 5G smartphone shipments will reach 700 million units compared to little more than 550 million units last year, which gives a year-on-year growth of 25%. And as very often mentioned, this is the area that we are primarily working in.
But it's not only the number of phones that are being sold. It's also the number of PCBs or printed circuit boards that are used within each phone. Whereas a few years ago, there was more or less only 1 PCB in the phone, and you see it on the bottom right here. This is the main board or the motherboard. Of course, we are still active in this market, and it's still important to us, but it has significantly decreased in share of our overall revenue over the last years.
And also a decrease in share in the smartphone business because in the meantime, in the high end, there are more PCBs being used. For example, in the camera modules or in integrated high-frequency and tele modules. So whereas in the past, there was maybe 1 printed circuit board in the phone, now there are maybe 3 or more in 1 phone.
And therefore, if you look only at the unit growth, you would jump too short, you have to really look into the number of PCBs that is being used overall in the market, in particular in the high-end market where we are focused on.
So in a nutshell, we see an increase in functionalities that support the demand for PCBs and smartphones. And we see this market comparatively resilient to overall consumer demand. And we are, in particular, well positioned in that high-end area. And that focus on the high-end area for us now paid off. And we have in the past often spoken of this diversification.
We've also presented in the last quarter review and the year-end results that we had, for the first time, reached more than EUR 100 million sales in this module business. So overall, this gains momentum, and we are confident that we will continue our growth path in that area.
Second topic, the substrate market. And in the substrate market, it's really more or less the same story. The overall substrate market is expected to grow 8% -- a little more than 8%. These are the most recent estimate.
And the demand/supply gap is still there. It will close for the consumer area, made a little earlier due to the current consumer demand. It could be that this closes at the end of next year. But for the server market, this demand/supply gap will remain for several years. And independent of the known investments that we are closely observing, the general gap will remain.
If you look in the server market, which is, for us, our key target market, also there, you have to separate the various web applications. As we all know, the main driver is cloud services. This is where the interesting projects for us are going into. And the overall dynamics of the centralized data management and all these artificial intelligence topics are well known.
In the -- apart from the server market itself and here again, like in the smartphone, it's not just a unit question. It's a question of how much of our product is needed. And whereas in the smartphone, it's the number of PCBs that is increasing, is in the server area the surface and the layer count, the size of our substrate is significantly increasing.
So it's not enough to look into unit-by-unit development, how does the server market grow. The server market overall is very resilient. The growth of all is now estimated at 8%, something. But whether this is 6%, 7%, 8% or 9%, doesn't make the big difference for AT&S.
Decisive for A&S is this change in architecture, which is shown here, which we have discussed before and which will drive the need for capacity and is the main reason for the supply/demand gap in the server market.
This server market has, as a supply chain, which is from our knowledge, contracted in the meantime throughout the supply chain. So whereas our customers contract us long term to provide capacities; as far as we know, they are also in contract long term with the hyperscalers and the guys that need that server capacity.
So if you look at the overall ABF substrate revenue in servers, market estimates and our estimates are that from 2021 to 2025, this market roughly double. How do we answer to that demand in the substrate business? Like Andreas mentioned in his introduction, our expansion projects are very well on track. We speak of our AT&S substrates triangle. We are currently ramping Chongqing III. Chongqing I already fully onstream since quite a while. Chongqing III, we are now more or less in the middle of the ramp.
Kulim, you see in the picture, the construction side is evolving and a lot of is going on there. And on the top, the Leoben facility with its R&D center. It's also well-developing headcount introduction. People onboarding is absolutely on track. And the Leoben facility also will help us to further diversify our customer base. And this is, of course, also a significant part of our strategy and reinforces our ability to grow in the future, the possibility to diversify our customer base. We definitely target to have a handful of customers in the substrate area, and we are very well on track in that respect as well.
That's so far the market overview. Thank you very much.
Okay. Thank you, Peter. So how does this now translate into our financials and other KPIs? So the actuals came in, as already stated. Revenue growth by 58% on an absolute level of EUR 503 million. The foreign exchange effect in that is EUR 46 million. And the profitability nonadjusted came in on 27.3% margin EBITDA.
Here, we have a foreign exchange rate effect of EUR 32 million considered. And the adjusted EBITDA margin, which is adjusted by EUR 7 million material and labor cost came in with 28.8%.
From the comparison to last year's first quarter point of view, revenue grew from EUR 318 million to EUR 503 million, EBITDA from EUR 46 million to EUR 137 million and net profit from minus EUR 5 million up to EUR 900 -- EUR 96 million -- EUR 900 million would have been a nice figure, but unfortunately not, so EUR 96 million.
Coming to the details about the quarterly revenue and EBITDA margin development. I would focus now again on the comparison between first quarter last year and first quarter this fiscal year. As said already, the margin came in on 16% last year and this year, 29% almost, which I think is a very nice number and reflecting the strong development of our business mainly driven by the ABF substrate growth for sure because that is the area where we invest the most CapEx in.
And this is the growth we are following regarding the market opportunities. As Peter mentioned before, we are getting more and more well positioned there, adding new customers to our portfolio and so on and so on. But also, we've got some support from FX effects, as I mentioned before already.
In our business segments, again, here, we see a very strong development in mobile device and substrate business area, where we have grown from EUR 220 million revenues to EUR 386 million, comparing both first quarters last and this fiscal year and EBITDA margin from 17% to 32%. This is mainly driven by the growth and additional capacity in our Chongqing facility. But we have also, as mentioned before by Peter, a very nice, strong development in our PCB for modules business, which we started December 2018.
Yes. Moving on to Automotive, Industrial and Medical. Potentially on the first, you wouldn't be disappointed from the merging development, but keep in mind, last year, this was impacted by heavy grants out of the IPCEI funding and national grants for innovation and R&D activities, which was kind of a onetime. And we have also additional burdens in Austria by additional start-up costs from the R&D center and other capacity expansions and also higher R&D expenditure in our central R&D activities, which we are driving forward to prepare ourselves for the next generations of products.
If I would eliminate all these special effects, there will be almost the same level of EBITDA margin like we have seen it last year.
So moving on to the financial position of the company. Cash, cash equivalents combined with each other, we have a very solid financial structure with EUR 1.446 billion in cash and cash equivalents, including unused credit lines. I think this is a very sound, solid financing basement, which also helps us to support our CapEx programs.
You most likely could ask why is the credit lines reduced. This is simply because we withdrew EUR 70 million out of that and used them for financing our CapEx -- supported the financing of our CapEx activities. So there was no expiry or things like that. So don't misinterpret the reduction here. So it's simply -- the usage like it was intended for.
The debt financing overview on the next slide. Also here, you can see that the maturity profile is quite solid and healthy. You see we have some refinancing need in this running fiscal year, which should be nicely possible with the funds available. And also the 1 to 3 years' time frame is nicely prepared to be financed by the existing facilities. So of course, there, I see a very sound situation and well prepared for the CapEx program we are driving.
Coming to the balance sheet. Total asset in line with our CapEx program and also with the customer prepayments received, we received the customer prepayments and considered them in our contract liabilities. So it's in the total assets incorporated. They grew up from EUR 3.750 billion to EUR 4.120 billion, 10%.
Equity had the same growth, mainly driven by our net income by the support we receive from the foreign exchange rates and some other changes, which is nicely bringing us to equity ratio of 33.5% finally.
Net debt also stays on an acceptable level. The ratio is 0.5. Our upper limit of net debt/EBITDA is 3%. So I think it's also here we are well in line with our guidance.
From the cash flow, also shows the strong operational results. Cash flow from operating activities is, for sure, mainly driven from the EBITDA to the larger extent, then a certain participation of contract liabilities and some others coming in with EUR 206 million, a significant increase compared to last year.
Cash flow from the investing activity is, for sure, mainly driven by the net CapEx. And the operating free cash flow, which is calculated out of cash flow from operating activities minus net CapEx came in with minus EUR 70 million. And the net CapEx sum up to minus EUR 276 million, which is significantly more than last year, but still our major KPIs are well on track and well in shape.
Coming to the current fiscal year's guidance, as I said already in the beginning, we confirm the guidance again. So summarizing it briefly for everyone who has not read it so far, revenue is expected to come in with EUR 2.2 billion. Profitability, adjusted EBITDA margin, 27% to 30%. Adjustment, as I said in the beginning, adjustment by labor costs and materials in the location Chongqing, Kulim and Leoben considered for the full fiscal year, EUR 75 million. You have heard it before, it's EUR 7 million in the first quarter. So it is to be expected that the activities are ramping up for sure mainly in Kulim and in Hinterberg.
Investments are expected to come in on the upper level of $1.250 billion, which is already a very ambitious number, but on the other hand side, this is what is driving our growth and which is -- what is supporting the projects in Kulim, Chongqing and Leoben.
Midterm guidance until 2025, 2026. We expect to grow still up to EUR 3.5 billion, which is an average growth rate of 22%. Profitability at the end is expected to come in 27% to 32%. Probably someone is asking himself why just 27% to 32%. This is the starting point where we see the first contributions of the Kulim factory. And from there, there is further improvement and efficiency activities possible.
ROCE should be then up to a level of 12% with the full ramp of the production lines. And net debt/ EBITDA should stay below 3. It could happen that for a certain period of time, this can be exceeded due to seasonal fluctuations or in-between financing activities. But at the end, definitely, we will come down and see a more sustainable situation again.
Equity ratio also should be beyond 30% for the full period. The same story there, we also need to see how the CapEx spending will go on. Either you have sometimes periodical shifts between the one or the other periodic. So it can happen that we fall briefly below the 30% for a certain period of time, but our midterm plan clearly shows that we can recover very fast in that case.
So that's it from my side about the financials and the other KPIs. I think this was also more or less the facts and the figures about our first quarter in the fiscal year 2022, 2023. And we are now available for your questions.
Thank you, Mr. Gerstenmayer. Thank you, Mr. Schneider. We will now start the Q&A. In order to give everyone the opportunity to ask questions, we would like you to ask you to limit yourself to 2 questions. Once we are through, if there are still questions and still time, we will start another round. Now I would like to hand over to Freesia to handle the session.
[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Patrick Steiner.
You allocated start-up costs for the R&D center in Leoben to the AIM segment, although you communicated that the R&D center is for ABF substrates. Do you see some opportunities...
Patrick, sorry. I think you were muted at the beginning. Could you restart your question, please?
Yes, sure. Sure. Can you hear me clearly now?
Yes. Thank you.
Okay. Perfect. So first question is about the AIM segment. You allocated startup costs for the R&D center in Leoben for the AIM segment, although you actually communicated the R&D center is for ABF substrate development and prototyping. Do you see opportunities there going forward for ABF substrates? Or what's the reason for that?
It's simply due to the situation that we have. For this year, the allocation of the activities in our location Leoben, which is mainly driven by our business unit AIM. Once that is progressing, we need to reconsider that and readjust the allocation of the center. But for simplification reasons, we started with a setup like we have it today and did not carve it out.
Okay. Second question would be about PC demand. Significantly lower future PC demand theoretically, if this would close the supply/demand gap in the client ABF substrate side much earlier than expected? How would this affect utilization and pricing at the plant in Chongqing? I mean utilization pricing just get down? Or would you be able to adjust the product mix more towards the server substrates to keep utilization at high level given that the server substrate gap is expected to remain for several years?
That is not fully in our hands. It is to some extent also in the hands of our customers. Our customers typically have several suppliers and optimize the capacities that they have access to. So it's very difficult for us to predict how customers will react to fluctuations in the demand.
It is true a supply-demand gap. It's an equation that is depending on the supply, but also on the demand of these 2 factors. So if there is a significant drop in demand, of course, that has an impact on closing the gap. But what that would mean then for AT&S depends [indiscernible].
What is also clear is that our customers tell us that they continue to focus on servers. So this is unchanged, the focus of AT&S on servers. We are considered to be, it seems, the technology leader at the moment in the market for server substrate. And in the server substrate market, there's much less competition as in all the other markets. So that's why the impact on pricing; if at all there is any, it should be minor.
And the next question comes from Daniel Lion from Erste Group.
I would like to start with a question on the capacity expansion development. I think when you increased the guidance for this year, you also mentioned that you're progressing well and faster with the expansion plan. Does this have any impact on the finalization, which is currently scheduled for the third quarter next year? Do you expect it to see faster, and maybe to have the full ramp already concluded maybe in the first half?
I think when we mentioned that we are pulling in and we are faster, that was then reflected in the guidance. So at the moment, we still -- there's no change in our plans compared to the last guidance that we have issued, which was an increased guidance.
Yes. Sure. But as to guidance for this year, actually, I was asking if you could be faster with finalizing the ramp compared to what was communicated.
You're referring to the midterm guidance, right?
No, it's like in-between. Of course, you have no guidance outstanding for the next fiscal year. But you mentioned that you expect to have Chongqing III fully ramped by the third quarter next year, right? No change to that?
No. No change to that. And this was why we increased our guidance for this year so that we are progressing very nicely with the ramp of Chongqing III. But once Chongqing III is fully up and running, which could be expected that next year, we have the first full year benefiting from the full capacity in Chongqing the entire year. Then we still to run through the construction and the ramp of Kulim, which is more or less independent from what is happening in Chongqing. And this is also the reason why we could improve the profitability level this year. But still the midterm guidance remains where it is because Kulim is another ambitious project which we need to see that we bring it on the road.
And then more of a general question. This is very prominent these days. Do you see any intensifying of the U.S.-Chinese conflict? Or it's just a rhetoric? And how would you think that the Chinese will answer the efforts of the U.S. to prevent the export of advanced semi equipment? And what was the impact here? And then also regarding the lining of the loss in Taiwan. Of course there's a lot of proposal for the foundries in Taiwan. Do you see the risk increasing these days? Or is it just rhetoric? What's your take?
This, I think, is difficult for us to comment on it. It's a bit more too much in the political area. What we see is that these tensions are now going on for a couple of years already. It had started under the Trump administration quite some years ago. So far on the business, we did not see any significant impact. As you can see from our numbers, we could nicely ramp our Chongqing investments. We are operating on very nice levels. We received a lot of support in Chongqing. Business is very stable there. And you can also see what I explained at the beginning that even in very difficult situations, AT & S is considered to be a partner with the Chinese administration and with the local authorities. So, so far, we do not see any disturbance. But for sure, and this is also not a very new development, china will try to build up its own semicon ecosystem. That started quite some years already with a lot of investment. And it's getting more and more up. I'm not sure whether you have read the latest news about SMIC. They -- it's at least rumors in the market they now shipped their first 7-nanometer chip to the market. And this is also some examples that they are progressing. And for sure, over time, they will come up with their own solutions and achieve a certain independency from the U.S. restrictions. But this again just proves that you cannot win markets with trying to carve out any competition of the market. You just need to be faster than your competition.
And the next question comes from Jürgen Wagner from Stifel.
Your competitor, Unimicron, most recently gave a rather weak outlook. That's a bit in contrast to you. How do you differentiate to them as they also say that they are focusing on the high-performance computing substrate market? And also from Intel, we see that they have to postpone their next-generation high-end processors like every other one. Now they talk about February next year. Why are you not seeing any weakness in the substrate demand from them?
So as far as Unimicron is concerned, we are also reading the press as you are and making up our mind. Our interpretation is that first of all, if you look at the competitive landscape, we have also already earlier stated that we see in particular IBIDEN and SHINKO in the high end area. Unimicron is somewhere in between. So it could be that they are more affected by consumer downturn and also maybe more exposed to spot market which we are not at all. My interpretation of the Unimicron guidance is quite different one. My personal one than the overall market, I find it surprising that the market reacts negatively to consecutive price increases. Even if a price increase after 30% ends up with 10%, I have done my PhD in pricing, and it's very surprising that this is considered bad news on the pricing. And then also on the portfolio of Unimicron, one more word. They have not only ICS but also PCB. And in the PCB, they are more exposed to the Android systems and to lower-end smartphones than we are as far as we know. So all in all, I think a peer which is interesting for us to follow. It's always good to have good competitors. But on the other hand, there are quite some significant differences in the portfolio. And if you look at their supply-demand guidance, it's pretty much the same as we have, which is for the consumer to close by the end of next year and the server market somewhere in the year, '25, 2025. I think we all don't know exactly. It's so far ahead. But I think we have -- that is quite comparable, the outlook.
And on Intel?
On Intel, we are -- I think we are progressing very well with Intel. We have -- we are doing good progress with our production. And of course, we also, here, closely observing the market news and looking into that. But our production is running full and our midterm guidance is unchanged. And also, our rent schedule is unchanged.
Could it be that you gain share then within that customer? Or is it just not so important if they delay key products?
We cannot comment on that topic.
And the next question comes from Gustav Froberg from Berenberg.
First question, could you break out the contribution to your growth in the quarter by price and volume or shipments, please? And then I have a question on the end market mix or the split between PCs and servers for AT & S ABF substrates. Could you give us a sense about the split between PC and server today? And then also what degree of visibility you have on inventory levels at your customers within ABF substrates, please?
Sorry, but these details, we are not disclosing as it's directly linked to our customers. So we stick to our official segment reporting and not details below.
And on the visibility of inventory levels, could you give us any color there?
I think we have the same visibility on inventory levels like every market participant has, there are some disclosed numbers for sure. The semicon market in some areas is on higher level, on the higher side. This is mainly driven by the ongoing chip shortage issue in the market. If there would be a correction, a slowdown in the market, it is to be expected that certain inventory management should happen. But first, we need to get better visibility about the further development of the general market sentiment. If there is, and how deep a slowdown could be, needs to be seen. We observe the situation very closely. And so far, the indications are limited on that.
Thank you. the next question comes from Alexander Thiel from Jefferies.
Alexander Thiel from Jefferies. I hope you can hear me. Two questions from me on the ABF substrate. The first one will be on your contract structure. Could you give more insights into the ASP side and duration and path on travel? And a follow-up would be if it's possible to actually store ABF in general, is that doable? And my second one would be on the exchange rate that has been used for the exchange gain on the cash on the balance sheet, if you can disclose that?
So details about contracts, we are not disclosing. Sorry about that. Or ABF, I'm not sure what you're referring to. You think storing the material, the base material or the products or what are you asking for?
The final product, how long is this storable, for example?
Okay. Yes. Typically, the shelf life of finished goods is around about 6 months. Typically, you can do a kind of refreshment afterwards. So you bring it back to the final processes, run them through there again and you have another 6 months. But I think this is typically not a big issue because we don't have significant stock levels for finished products. There is a very, very close alignment on the demand-supply situation in the supply chain. So stock levels in ABF substrates are quite limited. So in the exchange rate, we need to double check. And we will -- and Mr. Gebhardt will pass over the number to you later.
And the next question comes from Teresa Schinwald from Raiffeisen Bank International.
I'm coming back to the wider industry topic. Quite a few of the U.S. tech companies seem to now favor dividends or have it in focus. And this affects even the CapEx programs. What's your take on this?
We have some problems on the line. So how we see our dividend policy on that they are cutting their dividend due to the CapEx?
No, they are cutting their CapEx to pay dividends.
We do not see an impact on our developments. I think as shown before, our driver is, in particular, in the server market, driven by the architecture change. So we will have to provide a completely different kind of substrate to the market in a few years from now than we do today or have done in the past. And therefore, a minor shift, dividend versus CapEx or the other way around should not impact our business development.
The next question comes from -- again, from Mr. Patrick Steiner from Kepler Cheuvreux.
I'm not sure if this is answerable, I'm just going to try. It seems to me at the moment that the majority of your customers' server substrate capacity is being supplied by the 2 Japanese players, IBIDEN and SHINKO. Do you expect an allocation of server capacities in the future to a degree that any of the 3 or possibly 4 suppliers gets just a fair share capacities? Or do you see yourself clearly favored due to your technology leadership?
I think this is always somehow depending on the customer relationship and the technology capabilities we have in place. You cannot generalize it. So I think it's an individual strategy of the customer who is the preferred supplier for what kind of application. And for sure, AT & S target is always to be at least one of the top strategic suppliers for the intended applications.
And the last question comes from Daniel Lion from Erste Group.
We have not really talked about the auto demand going forward. I know it's not the time focus. But still, could you share your view on demand and production volumes? Maybe it's expected to have an impact on your business in the coming quarters?
First, Mr. Lion, it's really hard to understand. It seems you have a bad connection, but we'll try to answer your question. Maybe from the overall market, we do get the same figures and monitors as you do, I guess. So currently, the market estimate for the open market is an 8% growth of the automotive market in this year and the CAGR for the coming years of 7%. To which extent a slowdown of the consumer demand will impact automotive market, I think that's not us to answer. There are, I think, experts to work on that and in particular, the automotive industry itself. We, for our path once more, we are positioned in the high-end area. So our growth much more depends on how these very specific high-end areas develop and also then they go rather to the high end of the automotive market. So a little bit like the story in smartphone and the server. If you want to get a better understanding of the capabilities and the prospects of AT & S, you always have to look into the development of the high end rather than looking into the overall market.
Okay. That's clear. So this means that there's no changes for you currently visible in the demand patterns of your clients, right?
No, not at this moment. If I may come back to the question of Mr. Thiel from before? FX exchange rate we used for our translation is $1.07.
Okay. Thank you. If there are no further questions, we will conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your participation and questions. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact our IR team, Johannes Mattner and me, any time. Thanks again, and goodbye.