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Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to today's Q2 2020 conference of Klöckner & Co SE. For your information, this conference is being recorded. At this time, I would now like to turn the call over to your host today, Mr. Felix Schmitz. Thank you. Please go ahead, sir.
Yes, thanks, a lot, operator, and welcome, everybody, to our Q2 Analyst and Investors conference call. With me today are our CEO, Gisbert Rühl; our CFO, Oliver Falk; and our Board member, John Ganem. After the presentation, we will be open for your questions. With that, I'd like to hand over to Mr. Rühl.
Yes. Thanks very much, also a warm welcome from my side. And I have another guest here with me, and this is Guido Kerkhoff, who will join us officially on the 1st of September. Most of you know him and maybe, Guido, some words?
Yes. Good to be back on the call on results. I'm glad to be here and really looking forward for the challenge to join Klöckner.
Yes. Thanks, Guido will also be later on available in the Q&A session calls only concerning questions regarding Klöckner, not regarding Thyssen. Yes. We have a challenging quarter behind us. As you know, demand was heading down in most of the countries very significantly with corresponding impact on our results. We reacted early on this COVID-19 crisis and also with the help of digitalization. We were able to keep most of our branches operationally, which helped us very much in the beginning of the crisis, and this was especially possible due to our availability to switch to home office immediately. However, we also saw the crisis as an opportunity to push ahead with the digital transformation towards a platform company and to implement some additional restructuring measures. Shipments were down by 27.6%, sales even more by 30.4% because of lower price levels. The gross profit went, of course, with a lower top line also down, not as much as sales because our gross profit margin was somewhat higher than last year. The gross profit margin increased from 18.1% to 19.3%. And our EBITDA before restructuring measures was a bit above the guidance with EUR 11 million compared to EUR 51 million last year. Our cash flow of -- our operating cash flow was lower than last year, but with EUR 98 million, very substantial. And with this, we were also able to reduce our net financial debt down to EUR 476 million, which corresponds to gearing of 48%. Digital sales went up again from 29% to 38% in the second quarter. Some countries already above 50% like the U.S., for instance, Germany and U.K. are above 40% and France above 30%. Next slide. Our project survey, which we utilized immediately after the acceleration of the COVID-19 crisis. The scope of the -- of this project is on the one side, to drive efficiency further through digitalization and also to some additional restructuring measures. Digitalization, especially through the Klöckner assistant for the purchasing side and from e-procurement for the buy side, but also many other tools to automate our core processes. I will come back to this in a few minutes. We're reducing our labor force, our workforce by 1,200 employees. That's about 15% of our employees, 50% already through digitalization. And with this, now the effects of digitalization are kicking in, not only on the sales side, but also on the efficiency side. We're closing some further sides, probably 19, 11 of them in France, also by switching small customers from offline to online. And with this, we are then able to supply them from larger hubs, and we're also closing for further sites or consolidating for further sites in the U.S. Cost and timing, special material effects will be around EUR [ 80 ] million. There of 80% personnel related. Most or even more of this 80% will be compensated, cash-wise, on the one side through lower networking capital. And on the other side, also through the sale of some of the sites going forward. We -- yes, we started, as mentioned immediately after the acceleration of the crisis. And with this, we will be finished with this program -- of the implementation of this program. By the first quarter next year from this 1,200 employees, we reduced already 260 in the second quarter, mainly in the U.S. EBITDA contribution will be more than EUR 100 million. And digital sales is expected to increase by more than 50% already by the end of next year. The next slide, a quick look on our 2 important digital hubs. So on the one side, Klöckner.i, which is exclusively digitizing Klöckner and on the other side, then our platform some materials. And Klöckner.i is also in charge for this Klöckner -- for the development and implementation of the Klöckner Assistant. This is really a game changer because with this Klöckner Assistant, we will be able to finally automate RFQ and sales process for smaller customers nearly completely. And with this, we will be much, much more efficient also compared to our competitors. We already implemented the first version of the Klöckner Assistant in most of our countries, and we already processed sales of more than EUR 80 million with 1,300 customers through this Klöckner Assistant. So the Klöckner Assistant for the sales side. And then we have some materials and here, we also have Klöckner using some materials as an e-Procurement platform on the one side. So we are, if you like, the pilot customer folks on materials, for the procurement side. And with this, we will be then also able to automate our procurement process. And on the other side, some materials is also scaling on the supply side. On the sales side, we have already 70 suppliers who signed an agreement with some material, more than 50 customers are live -- 50 suppliers are live with 27,000 products and 1,200 register customers. Now next slide, a quick look on other tools, which we are implementing because it's not only the Klöckner Assistant and the e-Procurement. In the end, we want to automate our core processes like platform companies are doing like, for instance, a company like Amazon, Amazon is the largest retailer in the world, but has no salespeople. And when Amazon is going downstream to warehousing, logistics and so on, then they are also always investing in automation because with this, they're reducing their variable cost and this low variable cost, they are then able to grow exponentially. And this is in the end, also our target or was our target from the beginning, and this is what we're seeing as digital transformation to automate the core processes and then to scale the company also through acquisitions by acquiring smaller or mid-sized competitors digitalizing them and integrating them in our digital platform. Yes. With this, I hand over now to the financials to Oliver.
Yes. Thanks, Gisbert, and good afternoon to everybody. So let's get started with the shipments, the sales and gross profit on Page 9. You see that the shipments declined significantly from 1,479,000 tons in Q2 2019 to 1,070,000 tons in Q2 2020, which is a reduction by 27.6% year-on-year. This decline is, as you all know, largely driven by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic and lockdown measures. The same is true for the quarter-on-quarter decline. So after a sharp drop at the beginning of Q2, we saw a mild recovery of volumes. The recovery was supported by our digitalization capabilities to run the business without disruptions in our processes. So as a result, the decrease quarter-on-quarter was less prolonged with 21.6%. Sales fell year-on-year by 30.4%, even stronger than -- you saw that for the shipments due to lower average selling prices. Quarter-on-quarter sales decreased by 19.2%. The gross profit on the right-hand side, excluding restructuring effects was down year-on-year by 24.5% from EUR 304 million to EUR 229 million. Again, the main driver was the COVID-19 pandemic. And in line with the shipments and sales, gross profit decreased quarter-on-quarter by EUR 56 million. Gross profit margin came up year-on-year from 18.1% to 19.6%, also due to our continued margin over volume strategy. And despite the challenges from the COVID-19 pandemic, we could keep the margin quite stable. On the next page, you see the waterfall bridge regarding the EBITDA development Q2 2020 against Q2 2019. In Q2, the EBITDA adjusted by the EUR 72 million material special effects for the certain program. If you deduct them, you see that the EBITDA of Q2 2019 decreased then down to the EUR 11 million. So the reported EBITDA came in at EUR 61 million compared to EUR 82 million in Q2 2019. So the main driver for the EBITDA decline was the massive negative volume effect of EUR 84 million in the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, but also from the continued weaknesses of our customer industries, mainly automotive, machinery as well as the energy sector, especially in Germany and in the U.S. In contrast to the lower volumes, you see a positive price effect due to a higher decrease of purchase prices and sales prices. We had positive price effects in Switzerland due to our rebar business, and due to the margin over volume strategy at Klöckner Metals distribution Europe, which was partly compensated by negative price developments in the U.S. and Klöckner Metals Services Europe. So overall, the price effect accounts for EUR 4 million. OpEx improved by EUR [ 40 ] million so main drivers here were lower personnel expenses and lower volume depending expenses like shipment expenses and operating supplies and tools. On the next page, regarding cash flow and net debt. Cash flow came from the operating activities came in very strongly, it was EUR 98 million in Q2. The main reason for this favorable development is our very tight networking capital management, which led to a cash-in of EUR 82 million. Interest payments were EUR 5 million. We had a tax refund of EUR 2 million then, of course, the EUR 71 million restructuring provisions, which are not yet cash effective. And last but not least, others, are then adding up to the EUR 98 million operating cash flow. Gross CapEx in Q2 was EUR 14 million. If you deduct the disposal proceeds of EUR 1 million, we come into a net CapEx position of minus EUR 13 million, which then ends with a free cash flow of EUR 85 million in Q2. Consequently, our net financial debt decreased from EUR 563 million at the end of Q1 to EUR 476 million, which is significantly below the level of Q2 2019 of EUR 684 million. On the next page, you see the maturity profile of our financing instruments. So the net debt, including leases, came in at EUR 476 million, which is close to the multiyear low of EUR 445 million by the end of Q4 2019. And as already mentioned in our Q1 reporting, we improved our maturity profile by extending our syndicated loan in April. This was a very strong signal given the COVID-19 crisis, and that underlines our good credit rating in the European banking market. Regarding our European ABS and U.S. facilities, we are currently negotiating the renewal of those instruments, and we are confident that we are going to complete that renegotiation by the end of 2020. So overall, we have utilized EUR 581 million or 36% of our facilities, including leases. There is more than sufficient financial headroom and cash reserves for the current challenges. So to sum it up, financing is very solid. We have a strong headroom under committed debt facilities and a solid equity ratio in the low gearing. So with this, I would like to give back to Gisbert.
To the outlook. Yes. Yes. First of all, the outlook in Europe and then John will tell us the outlook in the U.S. And Europe, we expect that steel demand will go down by at least 20%, same in the U.S., by the way. Construction was so far not that impacted. But going forward, we expect here a decline too, especially, of course, in commercial real estate, office buildings and so on also because of home office. So there will be some significant changes going forward downwards also manufacturing, mechanical engineering with a substantial decline of about 10%, especially, of course, because of our dependency on Europe and especially on Germany on exports. Energy was down not as much in the U.S., but also, of course, because of the oil price. Significantly down with about 20% was auto. And here, I'm, anyhow, a bit skeptical going forward because in all these new technologies, electrification, autonomous cars, connected cars and new mobility concepts there are all these technologies in the U.S. and maybe also China leading the way and not Europe so that could be challenging going forward. Shipbuilding was down because we depend here very much on cruise ships, which are currently also not that much needed during the pandemic. And with this, we switch to John to the U.S., John?
Yes. Thank you, Gisbert. Construction, much the same in the U.S. It was pretty resilient in the second quarter, both on the commercial -- mainly on the commercial side because many projects were already underway. We are seeing that situation moderate and slow down as many new projects are being delayed or even canceled. So we do expect some headwinds on the commercial front in the second half of the year. Residential took a big dip in April, but rebounded strongly since housing starts and new home sales are pretty much close -- back to pre-crisis levels, supported by very low interest rates for the consumer. That should remain positive in the near term. But we do see some longer-term headwinds in residential associated with persistently high unemployment. Construction spending has been down for the last 4 months consecutively, even though it's still marginally higher year-over-year, the trend is certainly moving in a downward trajectory.On the manufacturing side, in the U.S., it's really for us, HVAC, electrical appliance and machinery. We did see a significant drop towards the end of March and April, as many of those manufacturers shut down for extended periods. They came back up. Typically, beginning in early to mid-May. And have been slowly ramping up production. Pretty much everybody is back operational, but at reduced year-over-year output. On the energy side, much more significant drop here in the U.S. Rig counts are down around 250. As a comparison in second quarter of 2019, they were closer to 1,000 so you can see a very significant drop in energy output and demand. We really need oil prices to come up off the current lows. Before we can expect any kind of meaningful recovery, albeit we probably are stabilized at a very low level for the time being. Automotive, year-to-date production, down 36%. That number was only 16.5% down in June. So production has restarted. And sales in the U.S. have begun to recover pretty sharply. We were -- in April, we hit a $9 million seasonally adjusted rate, unit rate. That surged to $15 million in July. So definitely a big boost in sales, and inventories are very low, under 50 days as reported as of August 1. So definitely trending in the right direction. This has caused some restarts of integrated mill capacities but again, very concerned about the outlook with the second surge here in COVID positive cases and high unemployment. So we get to see how that plays out. And then finally, in shipbuilding, we're pretty optimistic on shipbuilding here in the U.S. heavily involved in naval production. Those programs are booked years in advance and really haven't been impacted by COVID. So we'll actually see an upward trend year-over-year. And our marine barge business also remains relatively strong compared to the rest of the market segments, mainly due to these low interest rates and low steel prices, pulling forward some barge demand. That's it for the U.S.
Yes. Thanks, John. Yes. Against this development, we expect for the third quarter, considerable increase in shipments and sales compared to the second quarter EBITDA should come in before material special effects between EUR 15 million and EUR 25 million. For the full year, we expect a decrease of shipments and sales or shipments of about 15%. EBITDA, before material effect is expected to come in between EUR 50 million and EUR 70 million. Cash flow will be positive. We expect a higher double-digit number here. All these numbers are, of course, against the high uncertainty so we don't know how a second wave -- or how strong the second wave will be and that there will be any lockdowns again going forward. And -- but this is this is the result of scenarios we have done in the last 2 weeks, and this is the most likely case. Yes. With this, thanks very much for listening, and then we are open now for your questions. Operator, the Q&A session is going to start.
[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Alan Spence from Jefferies.
I've got a few. The first is around guidance. If I take your first half adjusted EBITDA of $32 million, and then I take the midpoint for Q3 and the full year 2020, it does imply a weaker Q4 rather than Q3. Is this conservatism based on a lack of visibility? Or as you highlighted in your comments, the potential threat of more lockdowns? Or do you actually think kind of demand and improvements will slow down into the end of the year?
Yes. Thanks. Okay. The fourth quarter is naturally always the most difficult quarter because we have, in principle, only 2.5 months. So that is always, yes, as mentioned, always more difficult. And other than that, yes, there is still a lot of uncertainty, of course, in this number. So the best case -- our best case is above this EUR 50 million to EUR 70 million, our worst case, on the other hand, below.
Okay. And regarding project [ SERC ], and I'm sure I said that wrong. But the $100 million targeted improvement by year-end 2021, how back-loaded might that be into the back end of next year? Or can you give a sense maybe how much you think that could be achieved within the first half?
Oliver?
Yes. We are implementing [ short-time ] measures during the second half of this year. As already said, most of the initiatives will be completed by the end of Q1. But as you know, restructuring and the layoff of employees is much more easier in the U.S. So therefore, a certain part of that program will be materialized in the second half already. So that's mainly a fair statement for the release of the employees in the U.S. And the other stake -- the other part, the effect will then get materialized in 2021.
So full effect in next year. The full effect of EUR 100 million next year. All right?
Okay. And just one last quick follow-up question. The cash expenses related to the restructuring charges from the second quarter. Can you just give us a sense when those will go out?
Yes. We do -- the major cash effect of the [ short-time ] program will be visible in the second half of the year or even moving into the 2021. But you should not be concerned because we will have a positive free cash flow from the [ short-time ] program. As on one hand, we have expenses for severance payments and let's say, other expenses, but this will be financed, so to say, by reduction of net working capital and by cash ins from the sale of real estate. So in total, the [ short-time ] program as such, regarding the one-off cash effect is positive.
Next one, please.
Next one comes from the line of Carsten Riek, Crédit Suisse.
I think the name was probably spelt or pronounced wrongly. It's Carsten Riek from Crédit Suisse. Can you hear me?
Yes. Yes, Carsten.
Yes. I was I was a bit surprised. But anyway, a few questions from my side. The first one is on Klöckner Material Swiss, Switzerland. It looked like it wasn't quite impressive result given the COVID-19 quarter. Can you shed a little bit more light on how sustainable that is because we have seen not only volumes going up, but the EBITDA contribution pretty much doubling? Is that a sustainable run rate for that business? Or do you see a bit of headwinds coming in here? That's the first one. The second question I have is on the free cash flow. It was quite a good one, but I expected still a bigger drop in inventory. Was that a technical decision to participate in the recovery of the market and to remain flexible with regard to customer requirements? Or was generally -- because generally, the business seems to be not that great apart from Switzerland because we have seen quite a bit of volume drop. So that the 2 questions from my side.
Yes, let me take this. Switzerland. Yes. No, Switzerland is sustainable and could even be better going forward. And the reason is that in Switzerland, we initiated already a very significant restructuring program about 2 or 2.5 years ago. So we are now having the full effect of this program already. And cash flow?
Yes, regarding your free cash flow and the underlying question concerning inventory, yes. Technically, you might be right that we -- if you keep the stock turn, which we have pre-crisis, and then stocks could have been lower. But as we already explained in our Q1 conference call, we have not intended for quarter 2 to bring down the stocks to that level because on one hand, we were forced, let's say, to take over the material coming in, in Q2 from the purchase orders, which we have released in Q1. But secondly, we wanted to be prepared for a restart of the business and wanted to have stock available. And this is what we did. So we came down with stock in Q2, but not, let's say, to that level, which you would get if you continue with the same stock turn. So therefore, looking forward, what we are going to do is we are improving our stock volumes. Meaning in the second half, as I said, a slight turnover increase. And in parallel to that, a slight stock decrease, which will then bring to the 2 figures, again, into a balance, and you would see by the end of the year, the stock turns, which you know from the past.
Thanks. Next one, please.
Comes from the line of Seth Rosenfeld from Exane.
If I may, I have a question on the corporate structure organization and also the digitalization efforts. So first Guido, welcome to Klöckner. It's wonderful to see you again. When we think about joining Klöckner, my understanding is there's now going to be a division of a supervisory board in the future, breaking up the digital operations from the more traditional operations can you just walk us through that change in corporate organization? Is there actually an interest and intention in eventually spinning out digital platform entirely, raising external financing? How should we interpret that messaging moving forward, please?
Yes. Thanks for the question. Yes. So we have to differentiate here Klöckner.i on the one side and SE materials on the other side. So Klöckner.i will remain with Klöckner because through Klöckner.i, we are driving the digital transformation of Klöckner itself. And then we have some materials as I finally -- as an open platform. So it means -- open means open also for competitors, and we already have a couple of competitors selling the products on the platform. But in the end, when we really want to scale this platform very significantly, it has to -- the platform has to be more independent from Klöckner because there are also competitors who still have some concerns to sell their products through a platform, which -- with the majority shareholder of Klöckner. And with this, we, from the beginning, wanted to make the platform more independent through third-party investors through financial investors, not that much strategic investors, more financial investors. So that -- this is really an independent platform in the end. And this is a process, which I will then manage as the Head of the Supervisory Board of this platform. So in the end, I would guess that Klöckner will remain as a minority shareholder of this platform. But in the end, it will be then really independent.
Can you confirm, I guess, give us any sense of a time line for that transition and any other [indiscernible] in the fund raising?
Yes. The transitions -- the fund raising will take place next year. So we're just implementing this, as mentioned, this e-Procurement tool. And the advantage of this e-procurement tool is that we're solving with this also the hen and egg problem because with this, the customer -- when the customer asks for an offer through XOM, then the suppliers could this offer only on the platform. And with this, resolving this hen and egg problem. And with this, we expect to scale the platform very significantly. And this is then the right point in time to take financial investors on board. Not really venture capital investors, more late-stage investors who are also experienced in working together with corporates.
Okay. One final question, if I may. With regards to the operations within Switzerland, your comment earlier that the Q2 beat is a, sustainable margin level going forward. I mean, obviously, Q2 was a fantastic quarter for the period. At the very least, that would imply that all other businesses were loss-making in the course of Q4, for example. Maybe you can give us a little more color on the trajectory for that Swiss business because it does seem like if Q2 is normal run rate, the other business would need to compensate to fit into guidance?
Yes. Okay. So the Swiss market and also our activities in Switzerland are different from what we have in the other segments. So it's as you know that besides the classical distribution business with steel and metals. We do have a rebar business, which is to be considered as the construction business delivering rebar material for the construction industry in Switzerland, and we have a business with technical products. So those -- the last 2 business units are much less dependent from the cycles which we see in steels and metals. And the COVID-19 situation in Switzerland was, for us, not as much effective as we could stay with our operations open. And we are -- we continue to run the business, and we had a strong demand on the construction side. So that's the reason why we saw a very good performance for Switzerland in Q2.
And this rebar business in Switzerland is more profitable than in other countries. So as such, there's a difference. The structure of this rebar business is a bit different. And it's -- and we are, by far, here market leader in Switzerland, in this business. Next question, please.
Comes from the line of Rochus Brauneiser.
I think most questions were answered now, but maybe can you specify a bit how much of the 1,200 people which are to be released under that program are gone by the end of Q3 and then by the end of the year. Is that -- can you already quantify that?
Yes. We have already 260 by the end of the last quarter, Oliver?
So you know that we need to run the procedures mainly in the countries, Germany and Netherlands and France, where we have to consult works councils and unions. So we will finally send out the -- or we will finally execute the cancellation of the contract completely by the end of this year, so that will be in December at the latest. So that means the full amount of the 1,200 employees will be released by the end of the year. And of course, if those people will stop working, we are setting up provisions for the following -- for those salaries.
Okay. I have a theoretical question in that context. If this digital transformation works and you can shift more work from physical people to the digital assistant. How much further could you go in terms of labor efficiency in, I don't know, second stage in 1 or 2 years?
Yes. Interesting question. So we -- as you have seen, we already 600 people of this. So 50% of these people could be laid off because of digitalization. And it will be also a high number going forward, and especially on the sales side, on the procurement side, but also on other -- we -- in principle, we're digitalizing all processes. And it's difficult to say to give now an exact number, but it will be very significantly.
Okay. Other question. Okay. You're expecting the market in Europe and U.S. to contract by over 20%. At the same time, you're expecting for the whole of the year that you are decreasing by, let's say, just 15%. We think this outperformance versus the market. Is this primarily the digitalization effort. What do you see in the marketplace right now? Who else is benefiting beside you at the moment in this crisis? And which are the guys which are being hit the most?
I think a good example is here the U.S., where we -- the 3 percentage points better than the market. John, could you give a bit color how this works?
Yes. I think it's a multistep answer to that. One, I think it's the market segments that you're serving, right? We're not heavily involved in automotive and automotive clearly took the biggest hit in the second quarter. And really to dig out of that hole on a full year basis. I think those competitors who have maybe a much bigger automotive mix will be more impacted. And I think our dependence on construction in some of these manufacturing businesses, which have held up somewhat better, have led to this improvement, I guess, or market share gain, if you will. In fact, I think based on the MSCI statistics, we achieved our highest market share ever in the second quarter and a lot of it driven by just the mix of business that we had, in addition to some growth that we had locked in contractually which is also benefiting us. Even though all the businesses are down, we had some growth that already built into 2020.
And you increased your digital sales also very significantly, above 15%?
Yes, sir. Absolutely. It's fueling really our transactional business, and that has -- in plate, for instance, we really have outperformed and a lot of that driven by these efficiencies that we're getting on our digital -- or our sales process is driven by -- supported by these digital tools. Where we're able to get back to customers with quotes much faster than our competition. And I think the win rates are certainly on the uptick, and I think that's supporting the overall gain in share.
Okay. Okay. In Europe?
Yes in Europe. So we are more dependent here in Europe on auto because of Becker Stahl and they -- Becker Stahl was significantly down. Sales were significantly down at the beginning of the crisis now recovered somewhat. But also here, we have increased our share of digital sales very significantly, as mentioned. In Germany and in the U.K., we are above 40% already. In Austria, by the way, we are close to 80% of the business is rewired digitally. And the beginning of the crisis, it was also our availability to switch immediately to home office. And with this, we had no disruptions in our warehouses, we closed some or we shut it down only a few warehouses in France, but other than that, all warehouses stayed operational.
Okay. Got it. Maybe one final question on your numbers. What I found quite amazing in your reported P&L is the personnel expense, if I deduct the 60-something figure for EUR 64 million for restructuring. And adjust for the short-term working payment from the government. I think it still appears that in absolute terms and also employee terms, the personnel expense decreased quite double-digit year-over-year. Is there anything I should have in mind why that cost item went down that much?
Yes. I think in total, we have to see that if you compare year-to-date June this year with year-to-date, June last year, we have laid off in total 567 FTEs. And this, of course, has an impact on the personnel expenses. And don't forget about the outsized employees, which we have reduced tremendously during the crisis. So it's not only limited to what we have initiated in Q2, it's a program or efficiency, a continuous efficiency improvement which already happened in the second half of last year.
All right. Next, if there's anyone else?
[Operator Instructions]
Obviously, there are no further questions. Yes. No, one is coming in, yes, from Deutsche Bank.
Comes from the line of Lars Cleff from Deutsche Bank.
I'm sorry to stop you on a Friday afternoon. Everything was perfectly clear. I only have one final minor question. I'm struggling to model a realistic tax rate for this year. Is there any help you can give me on that one?
Yes. I think if you look on Q2 then you might be concerned or have recognized that we have such a low tax expense or finally, we have a tax benefit. What is included here is a benefit from a loss carryback in the U.S., which is causing an income -- a tax income of EUR 7.3 million. And of course, this is not a sustainable situation. The situation is coming from the carryback of $32.7 million, which helped us, of course, in the tax position for Q2. Does that help?
Yes, indeed, it does.
So yes, thanks, everybody, for listening and for asking questions. Then we will see us again, when?
November 3.
November. You will see us or hear us again in November. Thanks, everyone. Bye-bye.
That does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect.