© 2024 Alpha Spread Limited. All Rights Reserved.
www.alphaspread.com is not operated by a broker, a dealer, or a registered investment adviser. Under no circumstances does any information posted on www.alphaspread.com represent a recommendation to buy or sell a security. The information on this site, and in its related newsletters, is not intended to be, nor does it constitute, investment advice or recommendations. The information on this site is in no way guaranteed for completeness, accuracy or in any other way. In no event shall Alpha Spread Limited be liable to any member, guest or third party for any damages of any kind arising out of the use of any content or other material published or available on www.alphaspread.com, or relating to the use of, or inability to use, www.alphaspread.com or any content, including, without limitation, any investment losses, lost profits, lost opportunity, special, incidental, indirect, consequential or punitive damages. Past performance is a poor indicator of future performance.
You don't have any saved screeners yet
Intrinsic Value is all-important and is the only logical way to evaluate the relative attractiveness of investments and businesses.
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Mutares earnings call for Q1 2024. On the call today, the CEO, Robin Laik; and the CFO, Mark Friedrich, will present the results and most relevant events of Q1 2024. After the presentation, they will be available to answer your questions. The presentation shown is available on the Mutares website after the call. Before we start, I would like to remind you that this presentation contains forward-looking statements, including projections which may not develop as currently expected. I, therefore, kindly ask you to take note of the precautionary warning about forward-looking statements that is included in the materials on our website. Now let me hand over to Robin Laik.
Yes. Good afternoon from my side the investors, ladies, and gentlemen. My name is Robin Laik, and I'm the founder of Mutares. And today, we would like to look at our business model, and that's what I will start with, and the key highlights of the first quarter. The financials will be then presented by Mark and I will come back with the outlook of the entire year and the future. So what are we doing? What are we doing in general? And that's also my personal background, so I was a restructuring manager for big corporates working for groups like L'Oréal Group and I was in charge for underperforming assets. And these underperforming assets, you can either close them down, which is for European big group, quite complex or you can try to restructure them by yourself. The key promise that in many cases, the good management is not available anymore. They have left the company already. And then you need external consultants and then you take the McKinsey guys in or you take the land barges, the PwC very good consultants in, but you don't have a real management team. And in many of these cases, then you decide to go for an exit. And this was my former role. My former role was I was heading the M&A department. And then I took over now the other site. I wanted to be one of these investors. And I knew it would cost me like 2 years until the company is restructured when I'm on the corporate side. And that's why at that time, we decided when starting the Mutares adventure 16 years ago, that I would go to these big corporates, and we will ask them to be cheaper than a closure and to be more efficient than the big corporate can operate themselves. And by this, we start with the Mutares adventure here in Munich, where I'm talking to you today. And today, as you can see, we are in 11 European countries. We are quite proud and happy that we are now in India, Shanghai, China, and also the U.S. So we are an international company going to these big corporates worldwide and asking them, do you have companies, portfolios that do not work? We will enter with our own teams into these companies, and we will make it cheaper than a restructuring by yourself or a close-down. And this is our Mutares DNA. We ask the seller to fund the business with a strong balance sheet. So the business that we acquire is self-funded for we ask the seller to pay us for doing the restructuring, which is necessary in the companies to acquire. And so we buy these companies via shelf companies. We do not buy them by the automating company, but we have more than 50 companies which are holding companies, which then acquire them. This is important as we do not want to be influenced directly by the losses, which appear in the operations. And we do generate profit day 1. So why do we generate profit day 1 after having acquired? So we pay a certain purchase price, but then we send our consulting team in. And we asked the portfolio company that we acquired that our consultants are paid day 1. And by this, we have a consulting income, which is today like EUR 10 million on a monthly basis. The second source of profit that we do have is dividends. When the companies turn around, we take our dividends of the camp portfolio company, which is profitable. And the source of profit is the exits. So we have 3 different sources of profit, consulting income, dividend, and exits. And by this, we generate our main KPI, which is the net result of the holding, and I'm quite happy to present today that we are starting quite strong in Q1 2024. So in which companies do we invest? This is very engineering driven very much automotive. So we have a part, a sector which is automotive business, which where we do almost EUR 3 billion today. Then we have businesses which are engineering machine tooling driven, also very German-based. This is our second sector, then we have a service part. As the service part, we do logistics, for example, and this third party and then the fourth which we just opened is consumer and retail. So we want to have a very big footprint when it comes to our local offices. But we also want to have a wide footprint when it comes to sectors in which we do invest. And always with the same criteria. When we invest into a company, we are looking on a strong balance sheet that we can do the restructuring of the existing business. And that's why we, in many cases, only pay a symbolic price as a purchase price. But we asked for cash in the company. We ask for fixed assets in the company and current assets that these assets help us to pay for the restructuring, which is necessary for the P&L look very weak. So we buy companies that do have maybe EUR 500 million in sales, but also EUR 50 million cash loss. And this brings me to the next point. So the target company we are looking for is a company, EUR 100 million to EUR 750 million in turnover, and 90% of the case is cash losing. And our main thing is we want to be recognized. So if a big corporate decides to exit one of these companies, it must be first in mind, they should think about Mutares. First and my first in choice. And today, we are quite happy for we are now included in the STAX in Germany and due to the strong performance in sales, but also in net income of the holding. So we start here with the time in 2020, but we could also start in 2017. This time, the company had about EUR 1 billion in sales and only EUR 20 million net profit on a holding level. This net profit which is composed in consulting income and dividends and exit proceeds. And 3 years in a row, so only EUR 20 million net income, and then we together as a team, we said, what can we do to bring this company in 2018 until 2028 to a EUR 10 billion company, to a $5 billion company. And at that time, the company, EUR 1 billion in sales. So we thought how can we bring more sales? How can you buy more companies? What can we do to have more dynamics in our business? And at that moment, we had an office in Munich. We had an office in Paris and in Milan, we decided to open up many European offices. Today, we have 11 European offices and 3 offices are broad. This was our idea that we wanted to grow to EUR 5 billion, and we wanted to have EUR 100 million net profit until 2028. And we are very happy that last year, we achieved already to EUR 4.7 billion in sales and more than EUR 100 million net profit. And now we have given us new targets prob stronger to grow. That's also why we opened India, China, and the U.S. But we said now until 2028, we want to have a company which is a EUR 10 billion company with EUR 200 million net profit. And where it's reflected in both in the development of our bond facility which we issued as well as on the share price and on the share development of the dividends. So as you can see here, we paid out EUR 1.50 in 2020 and 2021. We increased this dividend to EUR 175 million last year. And this year, we changed even our dividend policy for -- before it was a minimum dividend of EUR 1. And now we said our minimum dividend is EUR 2. And we even give a bonus dividend this year of EUR 0.25. That's why we'll come up with 2.25 million dividend on this year's shareholder meeting. So when we buy these companies, we cluster our business and our operational team in 4 different stages. So we have like 150 people on board, and they are helping us in the entire value chain. So if they take over key positions when it comes to CEO, when it comes to production, when it comes to sales, and we really entered to these companies. It's a team of 5 to 10 people. We enter into this company and then they're really dirty and hard work starts. For these companies, they do not make money. And these companies, there are many conflicts. So we have conflicts with the MUX council in many cases. We have conflicts with the customer for the product was not delivered in time, with quality issues. We have the suppliers which not have been paid. And when we enter into these companies, we try to bring all stakeholders on the table. And to solve the issue, our target is that we want to solve an issue for a big corporate. And this is, in many cases, really tough work. So you have to go to the customers. You have to go to the works council, and we have to convince them that if everyone helps together, we will bring the company back on track and make the company strong and profitable again. And so in the acquisition phase, what we do is -- and we already invested here, you see a EUR 427 million. And this is what we paid as a purchase price or an equity commitment into the company. And then we start earning money. How do we do it? We send our team in. Our team will start in the restructuring and will help our companies to be profitable to come to the optimization. And in the optimization stage, we are already profitable. Mainly we take our team out and send them to the next acquisition that we do, and then we decide what to do. Should we go for an add-on? So we successfully did, for example, with HILO Group, which I will present later on or do we go for an exit in this situation or take out dividends in this portfolio company, which is already profitable. And then we go to a stage that's called harvesting, where we really look on exiting and do our third stream of profit, which is the exit proceeds. A view on our portfolio, it's quite a wide range of different companies. I just want to name today maybe [indiscernible], a company which is in the electric distribution in Portugal, which we bought from [indiscernible]. And when we entered into this company, we took a big team in and we asked Christian, involved 2 individuals to run the show there, together with the local team. We were there just for the 100-days meeting, and it was very successfully presented what the company is now going to improve, how we are going to improve in the different sectors, and we are quite well on track to hear on the development of this company. But as you can see, we have quite a balanced portfolio. This is also important to us for we want not to be dependent on early cycle business or late cycle business. So we want to have companies which are noncyclic, we want to have companies which are in the early stage, but also in the late stage that we do not depend too much on the economical development in each of these countries. And we don't want to be only dependent on different sectors. That's why today, Mutares is really a global player, which looks for international expansion in Asia, in India and also in the U.S. Some of the highlights of last year. So when we acquired and I will show later on the HILO Group, we have now acquired Prinz, a deal that is long on our table, and we're very happy that we successfully could acquire this company and now increase our footprint. Now we have a Chinese entity, which we have acquired in addition to a German one and the Bulgarian on. We acquired Temakinho, also new to us. This is now in the food business in Italy, where we run kind of sushi shops in Italy, and we bought [indiscernible], the firefighting company in Germany, but not only in Germany and Italy. So it's a very international company, which is selling firefighting cards.And on the capital market bonds, we increased our bonds. So today, we talked about a EUR 250 million ticket that we achieved on the financing side, and we were able to increase now the dividend for this year, as already mentioned, to EUR 2.25 per share, and that's why the share price shows a very nice development. On the south side, thanks to our Nordics team, we were able to exit Frigoscania, a cooling logistic player in the Nordics, where we were very successfully selling this company to DAXA Group after having acquired it from the Norwegian post restructured, sold some French businesses, which were not really fitting to the business anymore, acquired their Nordic business and we're very successful in selling this company earlier this year. That's why the net result in Q1 looks quite promising. And we have sold as well YT Group. A look to India. And this is for me personally something special for my father. He came from the northern part of India. And he left in the 50s to Germany to study in Germany, they came from a very rich family. My father's family had coal mines, copper mines and they left India and he lost everything. So everything was nationalized. The companies came into India. And so you have no belonging anymore and he started by stretch. And coming now to India back in my father's home country forbids me, of course, with a lot of gratitude and I'm very happy. And today, we already talked about the company that we have in India, we have 2 different companies. We bought from Cooper Standard SFC. After having acquired, this was only a EUR 50 million business with almost EUR 10 million cash loss. And we sent our team in at that time, it was run by Nimit. Nimit is running today our Indian operations. And he turned this company to a EUR 70 million company and EUR 10 million cash flow positive company with a heavy restructuring that he has to undergo there. So he closed down plants, and we opened new plants. But today, we have very successfully managed to turn around in this company, and we opened up our [indiscernible], which is now going to start. We just opened it. So we have already a footprint in India, and we will open our new office now in Mumbai, run by a Nimit, which will be then operating, and there, we're looking exactly for the same. We are looking here in Europe. So we are looking for underperforming assets that a big corporate could not turn around anymore. And we want to enter with our own team, with our own Indian team then to do the turnaround for these companies and make the company profitable again. When we acquired SFC India in our Board meeting, so often, we discussed about the closure of SFC India. And when I look today, what has happened in these few years as a company which is running so properly and after such a short period of time, really profitable again. So what are our customers today? And when I was in India, I visited the main customers. I went to Tata, to Maruti, and Volkswagen. And for us, it's so important that we are close to the customers for if we want to do the restructuring, we need at first to have the trust of the customer. You need to have the trust of the Board's Council. You need to have the trust of the unions. You need to talk to the people and understand where is really the issue. What is the problem for we have to listen and to help the companies to be profitable again? And then they told me, Mr. Laik, when you acquired SFM India, I went into your plant. This was one of the purchasing managers of Tata told me, and he said it was so complex, different units fighting each other. And your CEO was not able to control the situation anymore. But now after you have put your team in, the situation comes down. And today, we talk about a very profitable business. And that's what we want to show. That's what we want to show, by the way, to the seller that it is better to give us the company and that we take over as an entrepreneur. For what we do when we buy these companies, we do simply run these companies like I run my own household. So one of these golden rules is, we will not spend more than money was coming in, and we cannot play the bank for our customers. But we have to bring this company into a situation where we bring the best-in-class product at the right time to our customers. That's our job. And that's what we have to do on a very entrepreneurial way. Just having a word on HILO Group, HILO is a company producing locking systems and tinges for the car industry. And when we bought KICO, the situation as the following, we bought this company, but we had a severe problem with Porsche and quality issues. We went -- before it was only a producer of parts and all of a sudden, we were a system supplier, and we were not able to fix the issue. And then we sent our team in Vilardo, who's today engineering head at Mutares. We asked them to do the turnaround and to fix a problem with Porsche and he was able to do so, turned around KICO Group, and then we decided to go for add-on acquisitions. And we bought from the Chinese stake. We bought ICH, a company based in China and Germany, had a lot of new order intake and we're able to bring this group together. And to think about where to produce, what are the customers where we have these Chinese customers, the European ones. And then we bought HPC and Princimaics that I just mentioned, which are all working in the same sector, locking and interest, but today, we talk about a EUR 300 million company. And bringing all these companies together helps us in different ways. So on the one side, you are stronger with your customers. If you go now to VW and you can produce them from China, from Bulgaria, from Romania, but also from Germany, we have a different footprint, which is very beneficial to them. And on the other side, when you buy steel, it's easier to buy steel if you have pipe companies, than if you have only one. So the critical mass is simply there. And by this, I would like to conclude my first speech. I would like to hand over to our CFO, Mark.
Thanks, Robin. So when looking at the planning agent, like always, we'll start with a big overview of the development in the group, where we reached almost EUR 1.4 billion of sales. And when looking at the right side, spending a first glance here at the different development of the segments, we see that it's actually quite mixed. We see that automotive and mobility increased quite substantially in revenue but also in profitability. The other segments experienced a bit of a setback in adjusted EBITDA, but I will run through the different reasons when running through the different segments. Overall, the development is quite on track compared to what we communicated just a couple of weeks ago, the guidance for 2024. So Mutares Holding reached almost EUR 30 million of revenues in consulting, the run rate, approximately EUR 10 million a month. It was obviously benefiting from the closing of the exit of TrivosGana Q1 and thereby reached a bit more than EUR 50 million of net income already in Q1. Starting with Automotive mobility and you see it right away, just the 5 groups that we have here in the segment are combining the majority of sales reaching EUR 600 million, mainly driven by M&A activity, especially for the Fernie Group, where we accomplished a lot of transactions in 2023. And the profitability pretty much picks up a lot due to the progress in transformation programs, especially in SFC Group, but also in part of the very United Group. On the other hand, we see a bit of a challenging environment for Peugeot where we planned expansion to Asia that is a bit lagging behind, where we now kind of changed a bit the way of approaching the market. We think that also the entry with Mutares China and now Mutares India can support the way forward for Peugeot. In addition, also in 2024, M&A activity will remain a key part of the development of the segment. We just heard from Robin, what he explained about the development of HILO Group, where it totally made sense to add 2 new entities to combine the existing 2 entities and another lev. Engineered technology is a segment that is suffering a bit due to the challenging environment in the construction industry. On the other hand, we also have a really decent development at all companies that are more leaning towards the energy infrastructure business. So SFC looks from the way forward, quite interesting NIM, also quite okay. Then we have, in addition, the [indiscernible] that is a producer of special or engines for special vehicles. looks also quite good. And we will see it in the life cycle. We finally also made quite good progress at content geminal. Today, coming to Goods and services is quite a broad segment as always, where we increased revenue by approximately 50% due to main M&A activity, the majority goes clearly to the former Viva Group and in addition, Terra Nova Group is developing quite as quite nice when it comes to the organic development. And that's what we see is approximately EUR 12 million revenue that is contributing to the almost EUR 290 million. On the other end, we also see across the board here, even though you might not see it in the adjusted EBITDA, quite a good development in the progress of the transformation programs so that we are looking here ahead with a very good feeling when it comes to pretty much all of this entity CM in the segment. Then in the last segment, Retail Foods, where we still have ulcer dominating the segment, and the market remains clearly challenging in France here where we saw the setback here in organic growth, so a decrease in revenue compared to last year where the team is now focusing a lot on improving the cost base. It looks quite good, what they find here and what we can deliver throughout the year. So also here, we are confident when it comes to the execution of the transformation program and quite confident at least looking a year ahead when the market may be normalized and then also that the revenue is picking up. M&A activity also in all segments here also a key factor for the development with adding approximately EUR 50 million of revenues. As always, in the communication in Q1, we cluster pretty much the segment into the new or into the faces really based on the development that we saw in the transformation programs and also the budgets that have been approved by us. And you see that we have added now a lot into optimization, so right in the middle, that the top remains quite unchanged. And as always, we add all new companies that have been recently acquired, let's say, in the last 12 months are still remaining in the realignment. When explaining a bit more about the ones that we staked out here with the color with red, we see that we moved [indiscernible] from realignment to harvesting right away because we pretty much did all we can and now focusing a lot on customer development, increasing the order intakes and thereby developing a lot the top line. There's not much left on the cost side. So the transformation program is quite well executed. It's all about developing the company from a top-line perspective. And that's why we have moved it right away into the harvesting stage because the company is able to also deliver dividends. Then we have in the optimization phase of Ferntree we had accomplished a lot of add-on acquisitions in 2023, and it's now all about pretty much executing on the synergy potential that we had in mind here. Then you see in the middle also go collective Mobilitas and ahead of us. So the former Ariba Group, where we are also a bit ahead of track when it comes to the transformation program. We are back on the market in terms of tendering and are quite confident that the companies will develop throughout the year quite well. Then we also highlighted Guascor Energy, where we had a complicated year 2023. We're not executing as fast as we wanted. The transformation program has now changed here and there a bit what we thought might be executed better and now we see a bit of -- we see a nice progress here. And that's why we also said that it's now time for the optimization program. The budget looks quite good and quite improved compared to last year. Then we have Conexus, a company that is operating mainly in the electricity business. So a company that is now formally as ZEFTI and then we have combined it with the Taco business, formerly known as EXI. And the company was providing a budget that is 180% turnaround compared to last year with a full order book, especially for the energy part. Therefore, the company is well on track, delivering quite a positive adjusted EBITDA throughout the year. And then last but not least, Gemini and AdComs, where we finally were able to ramp up revenues, especially at Gemini quite substantially compared to last year pretty much adding more than 50% here. And also in AdComs, we reached a milestone just a couple of weeks ago by signing a big contract here that will put us in the position to now focus on the execution of that contract and even are coming back to market to win other contracts, that's why we have now also live Gemini and it comes to optimization. And when looking at the right side, you see that the optimization bucket is now quite loaded when it comes to revenue. That's due to the big portfolio companies that are now in the bucket here, namely [indiscernible] that will continue throughout the year. And we will see that revenues coming to the realignment phase where we most likely we had, obviously, new companies, too. And we are overall quite okay with the clustering of the segment. We obviously focus a lot on the delivery of the transformation programs that have been agreed by us, and focusing on kind of smart transactions when it comes to the M&A side. And with this, I hand over back to Robin for the closing.
Thank you, Mark. Yes, spend still is not a lot. We are on a very fast track here. And when we look on our pipeline meeting, we see a lot of opportunities that are globally now presented to us. In India, I just had a talk with an adviser in the U.S. and in Europe as well. So we see -- in China as well, of course, we see a lot of deal opportunities. And this is for you, a very attractive access to a market which is normally closed. We are a stock-listed company, but we run as a private equity fund. And it is still owned by the family in a majority. So myself, we do have 25% as a family. And we have shown over the last years, we promised and we delivered. I mean this helps if after 16 years, in most of the years, we improved our dividend, and this is our strategy that we want to be very dividend-friendly, very growth orientated. So our target is to buy one company a month, which this year has happened until now, and we are very transparent. So everything that we do, being a stock listed company now in the STAX, we have to explain, and we are proud to explain it. And that's also why we are proud that we are, of course, long-term investors where we focus very much on the environment, on social, and government. Coming to our targets again. We are quite happy that we were able to achieve EUR 100 million net profit over the resources, the three pillars: consulting income, dividend, and exit proceeds last year. And as already shown by Mark, we are now at EUR 50 million net income after Q1. And the target is that you want to achieve more than EUR 100 million to be better than last year. But it's a daily fight for the right deal. It's a daily fight to make this company profitable and it's also tough. I mean we have seen a situation which we have not calculated before, for example, the higher interest rates or we have not calculated the uprear -- we have not calculated COVID. And there are so many, many risks, well, why people, investors sometimes ask me, Mr. Laik, how can you do it? How can you fulfill? And my answer is always only with the team. And with our 250 people in total on board, which are all super strong individuals who fight every day for improvement and standstill is not possible at Mutares. That's why I'm very happy to have this presentation today and looking forward now for your questions. Thank you.
Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions]. The first question comes from Zafer Rüzgar of Pareto Securities.
I have 2 questions. The first question is regarding your net income and the composition of the net income. Can you guide us through the moving parts of your net income in the first quarter? For example, what was the exact net gain from the Frigoscandia? And did you also have in the first quarter maybe somewhat higher OpEx compared to the prior quarters.
So starting with the first part of your question. So Frigoscandia's contribution is around EUR 50 million. We have a bit of an earn-out here, an outstanding depending on the result of Frigo in the next couple of years. And you're totally right, we had a bit of one-off expenses that are included partly in the OpEx. Approximately EUR 2.5 million is allocated to the increase in the bond, the EUR 100 million, and we had approximately EUR 3 million on the divestment of IT.
Okay. So around EUR 5.5 million more than usually? And my second question is regarding the automotive segment and relatively strong performance here. That was a bit surprising. I mean, given the fact that this is at least what we hear from the market, the overall sector is facing increasing headwinds and demand is going down. So how should we think about the adjusted EBITDA you achieved here in the first quarter? Is that the expected run rate for the rest of the year?
No. It's not. That's a clear answer, no. It's a time for and that makes up the whole year. We had a bit of -- well, we had a one-off effect here in the very United Group, which is a one-off compensation. And on the other hand, we see good progress in the transformation. Nevertheless, we don't see that this is continuing like this. The main question in these one-off compensations is not more normal than a one-off. So that's why we leave it in the adjusted EBITDA. And therefore, you see the high number, but it's not the run rate.
And it's very difficult for us to predict what are the call-offs from the automotive company. So I was once a CEO of an automotive company. At that time, we had a big detailed planning how much sales each month would come. These days, it's very difficult to predict how much volumes you will really sell.
Okay. Understood. Is there any kind of guidance for the segment you can share with us for the adjusted EBITDA? I mean last year, it was slightly positive. Is this what we can at least expect for this year?
Exactly. I think we can at least expect that it remains positive until the end of the year and should be also not just slightly actually positive. I think what's key is what I said during the presentation is that the M&A remains a key factor for the segment in order to still look into the right acquisitions for the different groups. I think this is something that remains key besides what we need to do on the ground in the participation and within our daily work.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Marie-Therese Gruebner, Hauck Aufhäuser Investment Banking.
So I do have a couple of questions, and I will ask them one by one, if you don't mind. So the first question has to do with the holding level financials. That's obviously very important with respect to the dividend, et cetera. So what I would like to understand is what is the annual level of costs we should factor in at the holding level, given your expansion into India and China? Maybe that's the first question.
I think it doesn't change the picture. The expenses that we have for these 2 countries. When looking at India, the agreed budget is a bit of headhunting in the office that combined may be high per million in 2024. And also when looking at China, where we have ramped up the job team quite substantially already to 7 people, so actually, China by itself should be financed within the country. We gave it a kick start here in the beginning of the year, and we'll do one more contribution in May that combines then the total amount that we spent for China, approximately EUR 2 million. So the expansion that we do here to these 2 countries and maybe when also adding the U.S., less than EUR 5 million.
But this also to be explained why only this short amount or a limited amount. So we do take like in China 7 operations skis. So we have in China, 3 M&A guys. Now we added 7 operationals, and we sent these guys into our portfolio companies, and they get paid by the portfolio companies do consulting income. That's why this is not an overhead cost. This is a variable cost but brings money to holding.
Okay. Excellent. The next question has to do with the level of dividend we can expect at ruling level. I mean in the first quarter, I guess, portfolio income is the consulting income that you have received? Or is this a separate line?
No. So in Q1, we have not included any dividend, so we pretty much included the exit of Frigoscandia into the financial income dividend.
As communicated, we have a minimum dividend of EUR 2, which would represent this 20 million shares, about EUR 40 million.
Okay. And so in terms of the dividends that you want to collect from the company that can pay dividends to you, should we assume it's more or less that level?
I think all of this is a bit early now, right? So we have an entire forecast for the year, which will be an increase in comparison to this year's guidance, and how it will split up depends a bit on the exit proceeds that we will achieve in addition plus the dividends.
Okay. And maybe one more question on the holding level. What was the cash at holding level as of end of Q1 and what cash inflow do you expect from Saban?
So at the end of Q1, we had a bit more than EUR 100 million. So we have not consumed the earn-out yet, so it might be throughout the year, EUR 2 million, EUR 3 million more net debt.
Okay. And then Frigoscandia, it has closed, right?
It has closed.
. And then I had maybe one question on the Retail & Food segment, which is the new segment you split out. I mean, is there a way you can isolate the company that delivered negative EUR 2.3 million in adjusted EBITDA in Q1 '23, what was the contribution to adjusted EBITDA in Q1 '24 just to get a sense of how those have developed?
So 2 of the 6 companies were not there a year ago. So we only what we actually also led maker was not there. So we talk only about Frigoscandia. And what we see is pretty much that the people is doing quite well really according to budget in Q1, which was not the same performance in a year ago. And Sasan, also improving slightly, but doesn't change a picture here also in the segment. So the development is pretty much dominated by [indiscernible], and that's where -- I also said that the organic growth that is set back that you see on the right side here, where it's a bit more than 10%. That is actually be -- so we have a setback in the market of approximately 10% in revenue. And therefore, the adjusted EBITDA is also developing negatively in Q1 compared to a year ago.
Okay. So we talk about retail and food, right? Later is in that bracket.
There are no more questions in the queue as of now. [Operator Instructions]. So I give the floor back to Mr. Laik and Mr. Fredric.
Yes. Thanks a lot for your attendance. And looking forward to this exciting year that we have now this global footprint and is a growing team, and we hope that we can deliver as we promised. Seeing your latest in Q2. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Thank you very much for participating in this call today. We wish you a great rest of the day and until next time, goodbye.