Nemetschek SE

XETRA:NEM

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Q3 Earnings Call 2024 of Nemetschek SE. [Operator Instructions]. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Stefanie Zimmermann.

Thank you, operator. Hello, everyone and a big welcome. Thanks for joining our earnings call today to discuss the results of the third quarter and the first 9 months of 2024 with us. With me today are our CEO, Yves Padrines; and our CFO, Louise Ofverstrom.

Today's conference call is being recorded. A replay of the call will be available at our website after the call. Additionally, you will find a report, the presentation and the press release on our Investor Relations website as well. But now let's get started. I would like to turn over to our CEO, Yves.

Thank you, Stefanie. Good afternoon, everyone. We appreciate your participation in today's earnings call. We will be discussing our financial results for the third quarter and the first 9 months of 2024. As usual, we prepared a [indiscernible] yet informative presentation, our CFO, Louise Ofverstrom, and I will guide you through this material briefly, and [indiscernible] will leave ample time for your questions after our presentation.

I would like to begin the presentation with our key messages for the quarter on Page #2. Q3 2024 was a successful quarter for our company. This success once again highlights the resilience and strength of our business model and strategy. We managed to achieve continued robust growth coupled with exceptionally high profitability despite the precedently challenging environments in our end markets, especially in Europe. As we already indicated in our last earnings call, the plus 6.3% on an FX adjusted basis, the Design segment showed the expected temporary impact on its revenue growth due to a very high comparison base in the third quarter versus Q3 2023. As a reminder, the reason for the high comparison base was the end of stand-alone sales of outline perpetual license without mandatory maintenance attach, which resulted in very strong onetime perpetual license sales in Q3 2023. And as well as the ongoing transition of [indiscernible] of our Design brands to a subscription business model.

In comparison, the organic growth of the Build segment further accelerated to plus 15% on an FX-adjusted basis in the third quarter. Bluebeam, was once again the largest contributor to these developments, which was additionally by a very resilient demand, especially in the U.S. market. Furthermore, the highly successful transition of Bluebeam to a subscription model is progressing according to plan. This progress gives us considerable confidence that we will achieve the expected growth of over plus 30% in the fourth quarter for Bluebeam.

Reflecting on our performance for the first 9 months of the year, we can be proud of our achievement. We recorded an organic currency-adjusted revenue growth plus 9.8% and an organic EBITDA margin of plus around 29.9%, excluding the dilutive effect from GoCanvas. These figures aligned precisely with our internal plans, Q3 marked also the first quarter in which we fully consolidated our GoCanvas acquisition [indiscernible] the successful closure of the transaction July 1. We are happy to report that GoCanvas showed the expected good underlying operating performance in Q3. However, please keep in mind that the reported figures do not yet reflect the full potential of the acquisition as both the revenue and EBITDA contribution of GoCanvas reduced by a high single-digit million euro amount in the second half of the year due to the IFRS related purchase price allocation and revenue haircut.

If we look at one of our main strategic priorities, our journey to a subscription and SaaS-centric business model, continue to execute as planned and the different position of our brands in the Design segment as well as at Bluebeam are progressing very successfully. The subscription to addition of Bluebeam is already very far advanced and will be completed by the end of the year. Consequently, main growth driver was once again the recurring part of our business. In particular, the very strong increase in our subscription and SaaS revenues, which is also reflected in all our major KPIs where we reach new record levels across the board.

Therefore, based on the successful first 9 months of the year, the expected very strong growth acceleration in the Build segment in the fourth quarter as well as the continued progress on our strategic initiatives, we are confident that -- and well on track to once again reach all our goals for this year. Consequently, we fully reiterate our organic as well as our expanded outlook, including GoCanvas for 2024.

On Page #4, you can see an overview of the corresponding figures to the Q3 development that we just discussed. In line with our key strategic priority, the transition to a subscription and SaaS-centric business model, our reported annual recurring revenue, which includes the contribution from our GoCanvas acquisition recorded an increase of plus 33%. However, even if we strip out the M&A contribution, the ARR growth remained at a high level with a plus of 26%. The continued strong increase in ARR is an important indicator for the group revenue and cash flow growth potential in the coming 12 months.

The main driver was once again the revenue from our subscription and SaaS models, which grew organically by almost plus 78%. Including the additional contribution of GoCanvas, which already has a fully SaaS-based business model, the growth even reached an impressive plus 94%. Thanks to this strong growth in our recurring revenue base, we were able to increase our organic revenue in Q3 by plus 8.9% and plus 9.6% on an organic and FX-adjusted base despite unchanged challenging economic environment in our end markets as well as our ongoing subscription and SaaS transition and its associated short-term accounting burden on our financial results.

Including the contribution of GoCanvas, the reported revenue for the first -- for the months from July to September increased by plus 15.1% to EUR 253 million. Due to our just mentioned addition to subscription and SaaS, the currently still lower profitability of GoCanvas, along with the IFRS-related revenue head cuts. Our EBITDA for the quarter increased with plus 6.7%, slightly under proportional compared to our top line development. The corresponding EBITDA margin reached [ 30.1% ]. However, looking at our organic EBITDA margin, which excludes the dilution due to GoCanvas, we reached a high level of 30.2%. Expected the earnings per share fell by 12.8% in the third quarter due to the current dilution caused by GoCanvas as well as the higher interest expense and amortization charges associated with its acquisition.

Slide #5. As promised, we want to keep you updated on the progress of GoCanvas, the largest acquisition in the more than a 60-year history of the Nemetschek Group. Before Louise will provide you with some additional financial implication of the acquisition, I would like to provide you with an update on the integration progress. Please allow me first to briefly remind you why we are so excited about the GoCanvas acquisition. And why we are convinced it will create significant value for the Nemetschek Group and as for our customers and shareholders.

Firstly, GoCanvas is a leading provider of SaaS solution for the pay for less collection, reporting integration of field data and construction and [indiscernible]. Their unique breadth, user-friendly solutions, GoCanvas, aim to digitalize mission paper-based processes, improve safety and ensure maximum compliance with industry standards. Secondly, GoCanvas fits perfectly with the portfolio strategy of Nemetschek business segments and enable us to unlock the massive field work opportunity in the construction industry, a market that grows well over 10% per year. By combining Bluebeam, ready today, most trusted name in collaboration solutions for the build and construct sector with its massive base of office workers together with GoCanvas customers in the field, we will create a truly unique ecosystem for the construction industry.

As a pure SaaS solution provider, GoCanvas will also further accelerate our successful transition to a subscription and SaaS-centric business model, which is, as you know, one of the key priorities for the Nemetschek Group.

Clearly, you see a strong synergy potential in the medium to long term. The acquisition of GoCanvas and its complementary technology [indiscernible] based as well as geographic presence will create significant growth opportunities. In particular, I would like to highlight GoCanvas currently already large and diversified user base of more than 300,000 active users. We, therefore, have a huge opportunity to address these customers with our solution in the Build segment. And even more importantly, we can address the over 3 million users of Bluebeam with solutions from GoCanvas.

After an extremely intensive due diligence process in the weeks and months leading up to the signing, we were able to announce the acquisition in early June. Less than 4 weeks later, on July 1, we were able to officially close the deal and consolidate GoCanvas as part of the Build segment. GoCanvas strong operational performance in the third quarter and its contribution to the group total results is very reassuring. [indiscernible] those results do not yet reflect the full potential of the acquisition due to the IFRS related deferred revenue [indiscernible].

In order to maximize the potential of the acquisition, we will continue to drive the integration of GoCanvas in the coming months and quarters. As you see on the right-hand side of the chart, we are currently driving various initiatives in different areas.

Looking at the go-to-market activities. We are currently intensifying the training collaboration of the GoCanvas and [indiscernible] teams. In addition, we are defining the different routes to cross-sell the solution of GoCanvas or Bluebeam customers, for example, by launching GoCanvas with imports and channel partners of Bluebeam.

Also in terms of integration, we have already started to integrate and harmonize various back-office functions, such as finance, IT and HR. And last but not least, we continue to integrate GoCanvas to the Nemetschek Group family. This is already very far advanced as GoCanvas as a similar customer-centric culture, which focused on customer proximity and customer delight, just as we do here at Nemetschek. Nevertheless, there are, of course, always things and best practices that we can learn from each other.

To summarize the current state of the GoCanvas acquisition after the third quarter, everything is going according to our internal planning, and we continue to be very confident that this acquisition will be a success.

And with that, I will now hand over to Louise who will dive deeper into the most important aspects of our financial results.

Thank you, Yves, and a warm welcome to our Q3 2024 earnings call from my side as well. Well, Yves has already touched on some of our key financial figures, and I would, therefore, now like to look a bit more in detail the most important financial aspects of the third quarter and first 9 months of 2024 as well as the underlying drivers thereof. And as usual, I would like to begin with an overview of the key financial highlights of the first 9 months of our financial year 2024, and this can be found on Page 7.

What we like to underline is assessment, we had a very successful 3 quarters of the year with continued strong and profitable growth. And this is especially encouraging, given our ongoing transition to a subscription and SaaS-centric business model. And as we all know, the associated short-term accounting burden on our financial results. Given the continued challenging environment, especially in our European design markets, and we continue to progress in accordance with our plans.

Taking -- starting with our accumulated revenue for the period from January to September, which grew by 11.5% on a reported basis to EUR 705 million. Please be aware that after the official closing of GoCanvas and the consolidation here of on July 1, our reported growth now also includes the contribution of GoCanvas from July onwards. And of course, after the announced IFRS-related revenue haircut of around 4 million in Q3, as already mentioned by Yves.

However, even if we strip out the GoCanvas effects, we achieved a strong organic growth of 9.3% and even 9.8% on an FX-adjusted basis. In line with our strategy, the main contributor to our growth was once again the recurring part of our business, which is represented by the Annual Recurring Revenue or ARR that increased by 33% to EUR 883 million. If we again exclude the contribution from the GoCanvas acquisition, the organic growth picture looks very, very similar with a strong plus of 25.2%. This strong growth in ARR clearly indicates the continued growth outlook, very good growth outlook for our business in the upcoming 12 months. And as one would expect as well, the key driver of this strong increase in ARR was our subscription and SaaS revenue, we sustained an impressive growth of 82.1% on a reported basis and 75.9% on an organic basis to EUR 381 million.

We continue to achieve a very healthy operating leverage. Continued improvements in our efficiency. And therefore, the EBITDA increased at a similar pace to our top line development to EUR 206 million. The corresponding EBITDA margin was at 29.2%. This development must be seen in the context of our ongoing transition and the transition in our revenue recognition patterns for our subscription and SaaS offerings. The dilution effect from GoCanvas as well as the M&A-related one-off costs, as you can recall that we had in the second quarter. These are all items that would normally have lower the EBITDA increase.

Therefore, please let me emphasize that if we were to exclude the dilutive effect of GoCanvas. The organic EBITDA margin would have been at 29.9%. We then additionally adjust margin for the M&A-related one-off costs in the mid single high digit million euro amount, the adjusted organic EBITDA margin would be 160 basis points higher and therefore, with 30.8% already really well in line with our guidance range of 30% to 31% for the full year.

Well, let's look at the right-hand side of the slide, you can see our continued high cash generation with strong cash conversion of over 100% also in the first 9 months of this year. Balance sheet metrics such as the equity ratio of [ 29% ] as well as the net debt position of EUR 370 million now showed the natural and intended increase in debt the third quarter as a result of the GoCanvas acquisition.

Let's move further to Page #8. And here, we will find an overview of the development of our 4 segments in the first 9 months of the year. Start from the left side with our Design segment. And as Yves already mentioned, the FX adjusted growth in Q3 of 6.3% was slightly below the growth rates of the previous quarters, but this development is a result of the very high prior year comparison base, which was attributable to the strong [indiscernible] business that we had due to the last time buy of perpetual licenses without the software surplus contract attached to it at our Allplan brand in Q3 '23. However, that development was fully expected and in line with our plans. And therefore, as you can recall, we already flagged for this in our earnings call in the second quarter.

For the first 9 months of the year, we recorded a strong and resilient development in a continued challenging market environment, especially in Europe in this segment. And as a result, our Design segment revenue increased by 8.1% on a reported and even 8.8% on a currency adjusted basis to EUR 344 million. And driven by a strong operational leverage, the EBITDA margin for the Design segment expanded by 110 business -- about basis points -- sorry, I'm so excited by the business, 110 basis points to 27.9%.

The consolidation of GoCanvas, that said July 1, the result for the first 9 months of the year for our Build segment, partially reflect the impact of GoCanvas as part of the segment for now. And consequently, the segment recorded an impressive 9 months growth of 18.3% on a reported and 18.6% on an FX-adjusted basis. In particular, the segment's third quarter results, the growth of 33.5% showed the impact from the strong contribution of our GoCanvas acquisition, and that's even after the consideration of the revenue [indiscernible]. However, Build segment also recorded a very encouraging organic development in the third quarter with an acceleration of growth to 15% on an organic and FX-adjusted basis.

So together with the continued resilient market outlook for the U.S. and the ongoing very successful transition of our Bluebeam brand which will be nearly complemented by the end of this financial year and the comparison base in Q4 that almost no longer includes license revenues for the first time since we started our transition, we continue to be very confident in our forecast that we will see a growth of more than plus 30% organically in the Build division in the fourth quarter. The segment's profitability also declined year-on-year to 32.2%. However, there again, adjusted for the M&A-related one-off costs as well as the mentioned dilution due to the GoCanvas, the normalized EBITDA profitability margin would have been a margin expansion year-on-year.

In the Media segment. Our brand Maxon continue to see ongoing weaker demand environment, especially in the important U.S. market. Nevertheless, the reported as well as our currency adjusted growth of 7.9% and 8.6%, respectively, once again, we're able to outperform the overall market in the first 9 months of the year [indiscernible] in this segment. In addition, the re-acceleration in constant currency growth from to [indiscernible] 8.8% in Q3 indicates that the second quarter likely marks the low point for the year in terms of growth rates. This segment's profitability was 34.3% continue to be above group average also in the first 9 months of 2024.

Then let's conclude with our smallest segment, Manage, which accounts for only 5% of our gross revenue. That's only increase of 1.9% in the first 9 months of the year. However, this segment's growth was partially negatively impacted by the discontinuation of a low-margin advisory service unit earlier in the year has also already mentioned. Despite the continued investment into the segment's product portfolio as well as future growth opportunities, the margin expanded markedly to 7.3% from just 1.2% last year.

That, let's come to Page #9. As you all know, one of our main strategic objectives and always an important discussion point in this call is the topic of recurring revenues and in particular the development of our subscription and SaaS business. I already mentioned that previously, we are again very pleased with the development of our subscription and SaaS revenues in Q3 as well as during the entire first month of 2024.

Let's start on the right side of the slide with one of our most important KPIs, our annual recurring revenues, ARR clearly grew over proportionally and in line with our goals for the full year with plus 33% on a reported and plus 25.2% on an organic basis to EUR 883 million. And just as a reminder, according to our definition here at Nemetschek Group, the ARR includes all of our different recurring revenue streams, so that is subscription and SaaS as well as maintenance contracts. That means that if we would exclude the maintenance contract from what I just said, the ARR growth of 94% on reported and almost 78% on an organic basis would have been even substantially higher.

In line with our strategy, our license revenue continued to decline as expected to 44% in Q3 driven by the ongoing successful transitions of our Bluebeam brand and the Design brands, [ Losan ] and Vectorworks. And this more volatile revenue category accounted for only 25 million at the end of the third quarter.

Now coming to the left-hand side of the slide, that also provides a longer-term picture of the development of our recurring revenues. And we started with recurring revenue base of just EUR 265 million in 2020, more than double these more resilient and better plannable revenues within the last 4 years. In addition, they now account for 86% of our total revenue base. And this is a new record high after the first 9 months of the year and well in line with our plans. So looking at the chart, it also, again, is becoming very, very clear what has been driving the strong increase in recurring revenues. Our systematic and highly successful transition to a subscription and SaaS-centric business model, which led to an almost sixfold increase in our subscription SaaS revenue base from 2020 to 2024. And the corresponding organic subscription and SaaS revenue CAGR reached a remarkable 55%. I believe that the chart, therefore, impressively shows the substantial progress we have already made here in the recent years and which we are determined to continue going forward.

So then to conclude our review of the results for the first 9 months of 2024, we provide a more comprehensive overview of our key P&L and cash flow items on Page #10. We have already addressed or reported as well as our organic revenue and EBITDA development in detail. However, going in down further in the P&L, you'll see that the impact our M&A activities is now also reflected in the reported development of our OpEx space, and that can be seen clearly on this page.

For example, if we take a closer look at the largest component of our overall cost base, that is our personnel cost naturally, you will see that after the very modest increase of only 3.8% in the first half of the year, the personnel expenses now increased slowly by 17.8% in Q3. However, as one would expect as well, the higher growth rate can be fully explained by the around 300 additional GoCanvas employees joined the Nemetschek Group as of July 1. [indiscernible] all these additional employees and additional costs linked to that acquisition, the underlying organic growth in personnel costs would be substantially lower and in line with the previous quarter, which underpins our continued focus on the cost base.

The earnings per share growth of only 8.5% over the first 9 months of the year and the even negative growth of minus [ 12.8% ] in the third quarter is solely coming from the impact from Canvas. Apart from the already discussed margin dilution due to the currency [indiscernible] or operational profitability of GoCanvas, also additional amortization charges as well as increased expenses played a major role here. For the coming quarters, we expect a run rate of around 5 million per quarter or slightly more than EUR 20 million per year of additional amortization charges in connection with the GoCanvas acquisition.

However, please be reminded that the effects of the acquisitions are subject to the fact that the important key figures that I was mentioning here, including the calculation of the PPA and amortization charges for GoCanvas are still preliminary and will not be finalized until the later stage of this year, and that's why it's still assumptions. The same applies to the additional interest expense that we expected as a result of the GoCanvas acquisition.

As we have already communicated, at just over EUR 600 million we initially financed a large portion of the purchase price with new debt. First, via a [indiscernible] credit facility as well as the bridge loan and we are currently in the process of the refinance of the bridge loan with [ RW ] promissory note, the [ German Shoshin ]. And in addition, as to our continued very strong cash flow generation with free cash flow before M&A of almost EUR 200 million in the first 9 months of 2024. We have already repaid more than EUR 100 million of the initial acquisition financing. With incremental interest expense of $7.7 million in the third quarter in connection with GoCanvas is therefore, not necessarily a representative run rate going forward.

Additional interest cost in 2025 are projected to be in the ballpark of EUR 20 million to EUR 25 million, but that is very much depending on how quickly we decide to repay the loan out of the strong cash flow generation as well as the final takeout financing conditions, of course.

One more, I think it's really fair to say that we still maintain a very solid balance sheet even after the acquisition of GoCanvas, which is with an equity ratio of 39% and a net debt-to-EBITDA ratio of currently 1.8x despite the GoCanvas acquisition. In addition, and thanks to our aforementioned strong operational performance as well as a very strong cash flow generation capability we will be able to very quickly delever and recreate a substantial leverage headroom for further investments.

And with that, I'll hand it back to you, Yves.

Thank you very much, Louise for this comprehensive overview of our financial results. As we come to the end of our presentation on Page #12, I would like to turn to our organic guidance as well as our expanded outlook following the acquisition of GoCanvas for the current financial year 2024.

On Slide 12. As a result of the multitude of long-term structural growth drivers in our industries, such as a low degree of digitalization, regulation and the pressing need for construction companies to become more efficient and sustainable. Our strong operational growth in the first 9 months of the year are highly resilient and well-diversified business model as well as our successful subscription and SaaS transition in the design and especially in the Build segments of brand Bluebeam. WeI continue to be very confident to achieve our outlook for the current financial year 2024. We, therefore, fully confirm all our organic as well as expanded financial targets following the acquisition of GoCanvas for 2024 despite the still challenging market environment and the ongoing transition of our business model to subscription and SaaS models and accounting-related dampening effect on our revenue [indiscernible].

In particular, this means that we will expect an organic revenue growth at constant currencies of 10% to 11%. In addition, the organic EBITDA margin is forecasted to be in the range of 30% to 31%. The ARR growth is expected to be around 25%. As a result, the share of recurring revenues is expected to reach around 85% by year-end. Furthermore, based on the consolidation of GoCanvas as of July 1, the Executive Board continues to expect an additional positive effect on the forecasted revenue growth of around 3 percentage points for 2024. The EBITDA margin is affected to be diluted by around 100 basis points due to the profitability of GoCanvas is still below the Nemetschek Group average. The ARR growth is forecasted to increase to more than 30%, while the share of recurring revenue is expected to continue to increase to around 85%.

Please let me highlight here again that these figures do not yet reflect the full potential of the acquisition. Both the revenue as well as the EBITDA contribution of GoCanvas are reduced by a high single-digit million euro amount in the second half of 2024 due to the IFRS related purchase price allocation. The true potential of GoCanvas and the combination of Bluebeam's office and GoCanvas fieldworker communities will become even more clearly visible in the coming years. As usual, our guidance is based on the assumption that there are no material changes in the global macroeconomic and our industry-specifications and that both key figures, including the calculation of the PPA charges for GoCanvas will not be finalized until later in the year.

To conclude and summarize our performance in the first 9 months of 2024. Nemetschek has once again proven its exceptional position in the market. We achieved impressive top line growth and a high profitability in a challenging environment while successfully transitioning to a subscription and SaaS business model.

And with that said, I would like to thank you for your attention, and we are now happy to take your questions. So operator, please, back to you.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question comes from Alice Jennings, Barclays.

My first question is just on the Build segment. So is expected to accelerate to more than 30% in the fourth quarter. I was just wondering, how do you expect this to continue going into 2025? And then my second question is in the [indiscernible]. So I believe that [indiscernible] is going to stop selling licenses for new customers from the start of -- for existing customers in the start of next year. So I was just wondering, have you seen any impact so far from people increasing their demand wishing to take the final opportunity to purchase a license in the fourth quarter so far?

Thank you, Alice. So first of all, on your Build question, yes, correct. We are planning to have a revenue growth around 33% plus in Q4. This is, again, mainly an accounting effect, especially also on the fact that we have very, very low comparable in Q4 2023. Remember, that was the first quarter where we didn't have any longer perpetual license. So we have a very, very low comparable. And therefore, in 2025, we will more come in normalize where we believe the Build segment will be more around 20% revenue growth, as we already indicated in the past. Clearly, this is going to be an exceptional water for build, and then we will more come back on an organic way to be around 20%.

Regarding your question on Design. Here, Graphisoft. Yes, as you know, we already announced many months ago that Graphisoft will stop selling perpetual license to new customers beginning of 2025 and that existing customers will still have the ability to buy perpetual license until January 1, 2026. So therefore, there has been already an ongoing demand of perpetual license for Graphisoft over the last few months because already known in the market also with our channel partner and reseller network.

Nevertheless, so you never know that this perpetual license could be or down for Q4. For the moment, we have not seen a huge increase on perpetual license in Q3. Of course, there's still a demand, a good demand, but not like an exceptional strong demand. It may potentially change in Q4, but we have to be very careful because, again, if you look at new customers, most of the time, they are buying mainly subscription by because, as you know, a lot of our business is here in Europe. And as you know, the European design market is still challenging, especially in the residential construction overall market segments.

Therefore, yes, there might be a surprise, but also it's not necessarily. So We have to be very cautious for Q4 in design in the particular Graphisoft. But yes, there is still a good demand but not exceptional demand on perpetual license yet. I hope I answer both of your questions, Alice.

The next question comes from Knut Woller, [ Baader-Helvea ].

First, on the new releases of Allplan 2025, Graphisoft and Vectorworks 2025. Can you give us some ideas here how you impact these new releases to shape growth in the coming quarters? Then secondly, Louise, if I understood you correctly, it was about a priority for you to pay down debt quickly and to deleverage to [indiscernible] for further M&A. Can you just give us some help in standing in absolute terms, what that means per year, would that be something of paydown of debt by around about 100 million a year, that's a realistic assumption? And then just quickly on the short-term deferred revenue momentum, could you help me understand what the organic growth was as you did for ARR? Thank you very much.

Thanks, Knut. So first of all, regarding the new releases in our [ auto ritual ] brands. So if you look at Graphisoft, Vectorworks and Allplan at 2025, for example. Knut, as you know, every year, in this period, we are launching new releases therefor these 3 large design brands. It is essential that we do that especially for recurring business and to make sure that our customers are continuing to subscribe. So churn avoidance and churn in terms of maintenance because some of these features are available with some upgrades on the maintenance side, but also on the subscription side, it is key to provide such key new features.

This part of our plan, our plan to reach our target. So it is already based in our forecast for Q4, but also for 2025. So it is business as usual, if you want and something that we do on a yearly basis. And for the other question, I will let Louise answer.

Yes. Hi Knut, yes. Yes, I think, of course, it's the priority to pay down the debt in order to recreate [indiscernible], right? I think that's always the cautious thing to do. And I mean, given our unchanged, very strong cash flow generating capability that we definitely do not see that will change in any time in the future, we will not use [indiscernible] that as we have already done now as well as in the last couple of weeks. So it's really depending on how much other M&A investment opportunities we have since they've been paid down the debt, et cetera.

So if we were not to do any M&A, as I say, we will use the cash to repay the debt. And I will not put a number on this. But let's put it Knut, I mean the EUR 100 million per year that you mentioned is not fully unrealistic, but it's very much depending on we continue, as you know, our growth story is to grow, and we have enough opportunities out there, so we will use to say the cash for the best use. Otherwise, yes, there could be something like that.

And the third question, I didn't really get. Could you please reiterate that question?

Yes, of course, Louise. And it's about deferred revenue momentum. Can you share with us what kind of growth it was organically? In the short-term deferred revenue momentum.

The deferred revenue momentum, I mean, that is what impacted yes, this impacted strongly and I just alluded to a little bit also to the Build segment. You know how it is in the beginning when you start with the subscription transition, you are building up your pools with the [indiscernible] FID revenue. We have almost everything on yearly contracts, right? So you take approximately a year until you have built that up and then you use your deferred revenues and then you have the growth coming up to that.

And the reason now for Q4 being so strong in Build as well is, of course, also that we now have a higher portion this year that we can we recognize in revenue now out of the deferred portion than we have here as well. So you have that kind of accounting boom boost, if you may, right? So that's something that is, of course, impacting short term at the beginning of our transition that levels out over time, of course. So that's one of the impacts we had. And of course, we added -- we added the GoCanvas acquisition now, there is purely a SaaS-based model. That's, of course, a fully recurring revenue model and then, of course, the design that is now moving.

So I mean in general, at the end of Q3, our deferred revenue increased by some 35% to 36% year-on-year. And there was approximately 30 million that we acquired through GoCanvas, if that's helpful.

The next question comes from Nicolas David, ODDO BHF.

The first question I have is regarding the net growth you posted on the Build segment organically in Q3. Could you share some color about this the drivers of this acceleration? Is it linked to some exceptional items, not only at Nevaris level or is it really a nicer than expected performance from the subscription of Bluebeam? That would be my first question.

And my second question is regarding GoCanvas [indiscernible] that in Q3. The revenue contribution was a bit higher than initially expected and could you also give us some details about why were you overly cautious regarding the revenue haircut linked to IFRS? Or is it to just GoCanvas better than expected?

Thank you, Nicolas. So regarding the Build segments, so clearly, it is not only due to Bluebeam accounting effect and all of that and, of course, still a strong demand. So but also, you're right, thanks to Nevaris. And Nevaris had not a great H1, I would say. I mean, as you know, Nevaris is really focusing -- it's mainly construction ERP for construction company, mainly in Germany and also with some other construction software. So it's really, really dedicated to the German market. And that they had a nice Q3 with some -- a couple of very good deals. So this really helped also bump the growth for Q3.

So the Build segment growth is just due to the accounting effect and the fact that Bluebeam is still highly successful. But the plus let's say that you have -- of what would have been probably a lower effect thanks to Nevaris on the Build segment.

And if you look at Q3 GoCanvas, this is really according to plan in terms of -- it's in line with what we said. So it's a high single-digit amount for the second half haircut. And yes, so we do not have any exceptional performance on GoCanvas which really as we planned.

Pretty well in line with the plan, but this is not to say deviating from that and also the haircut that we assume that is the same because it's still an assumption. So we still don't have the financial figures. That can, of course, change a little bit towards the year-end when we have the final figures, so it's still the same assumption. So it is completely in line with what we had expected, both parameters.

All right. Thank you for the comment. And regarding the build growth organically, could you share some color about constitutively the impact of Nevaris, was it really meaningfully accretive to the growth? So it's not so [indiscernible] the 15% growth that you showed.

I mean, for Q3, it was -- it was -- it was good. I mean it was not super high, but it was a good contribution.

So the next question comes from Nay Soe Naing from Berenberg. Excuse me if I mispronounce that.

I've got two, if I may. The first one is on the macro and the second one on the [indiscernible] contributions from the subscription transition plans. But because of the macro question, one consistent feedback we've had from the underlying industry throughout the year is because of political uncertainties, some of the customers have delayed the decisions to be in new projects now that we've had election results in the U.S. and then unfortunately with some recent developments in your home country. I was wondering how we should think about the macro environment heading into 2025? Should we expect some of the delayed project decision to come back to 25? Or the uncertainties would continue to exist, especially in Germany?

On the macro side, clearly, there is no change. I mean the situation is similar. Yes, we may all think that, well, because interest rates went a little bit down and planning to still go down that the situation in the construction market, especially in the [indiscernible] market is going strongly better. Also for construction software business, no. We are not expecting big changes. So we're not expecting the situation to be better, but also not worse within the coming months and quarters.

Our guidance 2025 is based on the assumption that there will be more underlying market changes, and that's the case. And the same when I talk to peers, peers in terms of AECO software vendors. I mean, some of them have the same I mean, feedback -- I mean, really depending on which market they are. I mean some markets are probably more affected than others of changes. But even when you talk to people who are more selling hardware and materials in the construction industry, they do not see fundamental changes next year and also in Q4 and the overall demand in the construction market. So no change.

Got it. Understood. And then my second question is growth contribution, the [indiscernible] transition plan. Of the 20 -- around 20% growth that you're guiding in Build for 2025, how much of that will come from the tailwinds that we'll continue to see from the subscription transition plan. And then over in the Design segment, what level of growth headwind should we expect from this Graphisoft's of transition, please?

Well, if you look at 2025, so clearly, on the Build segment side, I mean, the growth is coming from mainly user growth, that's where the growth is coming from. There is still a strong demand, especially in the U.S. As you know, we are taking strong investment, but also strong focus on internationalization for Bluebeam, especially since [ Usman Sugar ], the new CEO of Bluebeam and the new Chief Division Officer [indiscernible] who joined as last year in September. That was a strong focus. In Europe, we are really targeting key markets such as France and Germany. U.K., we are already doing okay. We see strong growth potential, which probably will have more material effect after 2025, but still strong, nice growth opportunities also in Asia and in the Middle East.

So clearly, the main growth is coming to be strong at the beginning in fiscal '25 and then it would be a little bit more moderate. And so for the full year, it is 20%, as I said before, as with higher growth, I mean, due to the, of course, accounting effects, especially in Q1, but then coming to moderate growth and be blended around 20% for the full year.

Design, the bracket of transition will give us some headwinds, but other brands like Vectorworks will come out of the transition. So as you know, beginning of 2024, all markets, excluding Japan, the only opportunity you have to buy Vectorworks is a subscription. Then if you look at Allplan I mean, around 75% to 80% of the new seats that we are selling with Allplan since the beginning of this year, our subscription already. So the overall ration to subscription in Design, as already stated, is going to be much, much smoother compared to Build. And we do not set up from 0 in terms of migration also there. So we are already if you look at subscription revenue in Design, we are already in the mid- to high 20% share of the total revenue of the design revenue.

The next question comes from Florian Treisch, Kepler Cheuvreux.

So you said you are very confident on reaching your guidance. Some might argue that you can be even more confident in say slightly lifting it? Is there a particular reason that you're holding back and lifting the guidance today? And the second part is -- your partner answered already answered this year with your statement on the Design subset, but my impression at least is that the transition overall is running more smoothly, we probably have anticipated. Are there any specific reason you slightly touched on new business is really sub-based now that really that clients are now, let's say, also more proactively willing to go to subs? Kind of to your surprise as well?

Thanks, Florian. And so you're right. Clearly, to start with your second point. There is clearly an effect that for the last couple of years, especially in Europe, I mean, customers are willing to even demanding without us pushing a couple of years ago more to go with subscription. I mean it's for economical reason, because it's less expensive for them, especially small sized customers. They have smaller upfront payments.

Hence, economically, it's also the fact that we increased over the last [indiscernible] of years a little bit also our perpetual license price. And therefore, it's therefore, also more attractive economically to go with subscription. But then even more importantly, you have a lot of features, which are not available any longer if you go on perpetual license versus [indiscernible] especially cloud-based features. So that's why, yes, you're right. This is also one of the impact that it is much smoother for us on the way to subscription.

I think the brand, which is our largest brand in Design [indiscernible], they still have some good business on perpetual license. So clearly, this is where in 2025 especially in Q1, where we had a very strong Q1 in 2024 of perpetual license. Remember, with Graphisoft because we had also this price increase on April 1, 2024. I mean we will have a high comparable in Q1 in Design and therefore, in Q3 will have an impact.

But overall, if you look at what we are currently planning for 2025, yes, one will be probably lower. But overall for the full year, Design will be still in the range of what we have this year or even slightly higher in the high single-digit type of revenue growth for 2025.

But coming back to your question number one. Yes, we are accelerating strongly in Q4. Q4 with the Build segment, 3% plus. And Design growth is planning to reaccelerate but slightly, a slight acceleration. I mean there are still some risk. There are still uncertainty in regards to the current economic and political environment, of course, however, we continue to be very confident to reach all our targets for the financial year 2024. Now saying that we are going to be in the upper end of that is probably way too early to say.

The next question comes from Michael Briest, UBS.

Apologies if I missed it, but I was wondering, have you repeated the ambition to grow organically in the mid-teens in 2025? And then given [ Graphisoft ], sorry, the Build segment is going to be doing 20%. It feels like everything else has to be around double digit at least in order to achieve that. And then I've got a follow-up.

Yes, we are not changing our 2025 guidance. It's still at least in the mid-teens. No change on an organic basis. And of course, then you add also the impact -- the positive impact of GoCanvas acquisition, so no change there. And yes, Build would be around 20% plus then we will have high single digit, close to probably double digits for design and probably similar to some other brands between the high single digits and low double-digit growth overall for the other segments.

And can you talk about the managed business. And I guess the German operations were flat this quarter. You commented about macro suggest you're not expecting a pickup, but presumably Germany will get better than for 2025 and manageable obviously have to reaccelerate what will drive that?

Definitely, [indiscernible] will reaccelerate. I mean we do not see -- I remember -- there are still no figures on management as you're right in Germany. But in 2024, the impact on margin operator is the fact also that we stopped this advisory business and therefore, we will have a better comparable also for next year, et cetera. So we should be -- we should be a much, much better growth for operator managed in 2025 versus 2024.

I mean, Germany was flat despite Nevaris having a good quarter. So what's going on there and what will drive a pickup?

Again, operated manage, it's not only Germany, and Nevaris is more in the Build segment. So I'm not sure I understand your question, sorry. [indiscernible] not managing operator.

No. But I mean Germany in aggregate was flat for the quarter. So if Nevaris was strong, what were the weaker parts and what will drive their acceleration?

Well, I mean, of course, a big part of our business in Germany is Design and here with a move to subscription, of course, it had an impact on the pure accounting also impact on the revenue piece. But in terms of sales, Design was good in Germany.

That's a subscription transition effect more to say, and we have a big chunk of our Design business, especially [indiscernible] in Germany. So that's the reason.

Okay. So Germany is growing better than that on a sort of adjusted basis?

Yes. So I mean the German construction market and design markets as such, as you know, from the industrial perspective, they were weak, right? We still have, so to say, a strong momentum on the software side. It's more challenging than in other regions, et cetera. But I think also the reason why we [indiscernible] in Germany for the [indiscernible] group was a little bit lower compared to what we have been, which is much higher than to say, the industrial market growth is, of course, to the subscription transition, and that's more the same due to accounting burdens that come throughout that trough. But I mean, Germany, it's not a strong market right now. I think that's [indiscernible].

It is not a strong market and that's why our focus is really around internationalization, the U.S. market, and that's why [indiscernible] acquisition of GoCanvas was very key and strategic for us also to grow even further our presence in North America. And as you know, we also are going after more aggressively in other continents such as Asia, with India, et cetera, et cetera. So internationalization is really the key growth driver of our overall strategy as a Nemetschek Group.

Our next question comes from Martin Jungfleisch, BNP Paribas.

Also two questions, please. First one is a bit on AI. I mean, you've recently launched a number of AI functionalities in your [indiscernible]. I think you're also adding an AI layer in your solutions for next year. Can you just discuss a bit how these AI functionalities are being taken up by your customers? And how do you think you can monetize these investments? So are customers actually willing to pay out for these functions? And then the second question is on GoCanvas again. Could you disclose what the growth rate year-on-year was executing this revenue haircut? Is it still above the 20% growth rate?

Thanks, Martin. So first of all, on AI, yes, you're right. So as you know, we launched this AI visualizer, with now deployed with all 3 [indiscernible] brands, such as Graphisoft, [indiscernible] and Vectorworks and Allplan. We have also AI functionality, of course, at [indiscernible], especially in Energy Management, which is mainly an AI-led software SaaS solution. We have also AI -- had Bluebeam, et cetera.

Now, really case by case. If you look at the AI visualizer, it's used actively now we have very, very good usage of our AI visualizer, especially with brands like [ Arica ] and Vectorworks. Now how we are monetizing it? Yes. I mean, first, we want to see really the feedback from the market, making sure that you know it is helping them to be more efficient and more productive, which seems to be the case in some parts.

And then our idea moving forward with AI, how we are planning to monetize AI. So either it is part of a premium package. So we need to push subscribers to move to -- and therefore, increase our average revenue per user by doing that. It is also a way, of course, to reduce churn by having [indiscernible], but some specific AI features, we are also planning sell them stand-alone and to monetize them standalone in the future. So it's really depending what it is for which brand and for what, et cetera.

And the AI layer that we just announced at the group level. A few weeks ago, we are planning to launch it sometime in 2025. And that's really going to be the foundation of all our brand overall strategic technology foundation around AI for the future.

Then regarding GoCanvas, yes, GoCanvas continued to be a 20% revenue growth company and around 20% gross margin -- I mean EBITDA margin business, excluding the haircut as we expected. So it is a rule of 40 companies exactly, excluding the haircut.

Next question comes from Victor Cheng, Bank of America.

Two, if I may. I think you earlier talked about Bluebeam internationalization that obviously has been the ongoing kind of thesis. I know Bluebeam obviously is very strong in the gold standard in U.S. But is there any reason in other markets that people actually is not using Bluebeam as much as they should have? Is it more kind of the ecosystem or environment isn't there? Or is there a different kind of competition in other regions?

And then secondly, on media, media growth has been a bit slower than historical for a few quarters now. Obviously, you're talking about the '25 [indiscernible] you expect a reacceleration. You also talked about outperformance versus underlying market and media. Can you give us some color on kind of what gives you the confidence, what underlying market growth you're seeing?

First of all, regarding Bluebeam, you're right. We continue to be very, very strong in North America, but also we are growing significantly internationally. And why we are growing internationally. So first of all, it was easier to grow internationally in English-speaking markets. That's why Bluebeam is strong in U.K., is strong in Australia and New Zealand. Bluebeam is also very strong in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden, if you look at Sweden, I mean, very, very strong market share. But then there are some other markets, especially France and Germany, where frankly, we probably didn't do the right job of locally go-to-market, let's say, localization of Bluebeam. And this has clearly changed the last few months. We worked on proper marketing, [indiscernible] on what are the value proposition of Bluebeam and not going with Bluebeam and saying, oh, these are the nice technical features of Bluebeam, you can do X, Y [indiscernible] we need to go to the value proposition of Bluebeam and we see that works.

And by the way, we signed some very, very important big deals of Bluebeam a very large customer in Germany in Q3 in September, very big ones. But it is working and we are very, very pleased to see that. This is really giving us high confidence that we can see that Bluebeam can be very strong in Continental Europe.

So rest of the world, Asia, Middle East, too early to say. We are pushing it. But we do not see why, especially in India or in the Middle East there should be any difference, especially that there is no real strong competition in these markets for Bluebeam.

Regarding media, yes. Media, the market growth is not fantastic for the last couple of years. As you know, we had Hollywood strike last year, which still impacted the media growth even [indiscernible] streaming players are not necessarily in a good shape. You have less content produced. And we see that our main slow, as I said before, the presentation is coming from the U.S. market. I mean as the rest of the world is doing okay. We even have double-digit growth or strong double-digit growth if you look at Asia Pacific.

But as half of the business of Maxon is in North America well, hoping really impacting, and we have only this high single percentage growth on the revenue side from Maxon. The good thing, and you can compare with this, for example, with our main competitor on the media side, we are clearly outperforming the growth of the competition. But clearly, we see better performance in Q3 than in Q2. We foresee, again, when we look at October that the trend is the same as in Q3. So we are expecting Q4 to be the similar type of growth more or less in Q3 and probably slightly better than even in 2025 because, of course, as it is a pure subscription business, all the sales that we are doing now in the second half of 2024 will have a positive impact on the revenue side for 2025.

So we are confident on the Maxon to really be, again, in -- to come back to the probably even double-digit growth midterm low double-digit growth midterm for business.

Next question comes from Chandra Sriraman, Stifel.

Congrats on my side as well. Just a couple of questions and clarification. I was just wondering in terms of price increases, you did quite a wide range of [indiscernible] increases last year in Design, Build has been the third price increases for a couple of years. How are you seeing this for Bluebeam particularly? And also, on a related note, you had the first set of renewals as well in terms of your subscriptions. So I was just wondering, have you noticed any change in terms of attrition here at lowering give you a more steady visibility on overall revenues.

First of all, on price increase, yes, we've done price increases mainly on perpetual license business in design, which is helping us in the conversion and the transition to subscription and SaaS business model.

On the Bluebeam side, I mean, there has been some price adjustments. And as you know, when we moved also to subscription with Bluebeam, repackaging, et cetera, and that's why as we discussed, Bluebeam average yearly subscription fee represents 50 -- around 50% plus of the perpetual license. And this is really thanks to [indiscernible], price increase or price adjustments, but it's really repackaging that we have done with Bluebeam. There has been some slight also price increases Bluebeam done. But clearly, the growth of Bluebeam is mainly -- I mean, is still coming from the net user growth.

On the renewal side, for the moment, I mean positive. I mean, we are in a churn rate, which we were planning to have. Of course, when you start with some piece on the churn, and therefore, higher than [indiscernible] maintenance, but that's normal. But overall, there is no big change in the churn rate in our renewal and subscription that we have seen so far. So quite positive.

Perfect. And maybe one clarification. Historically, the BAU conference in the new year has an impact on Q4 Design performance. I'm just wondering is that a year behind us, given that you're pushing towards subscriptions?

[indiscernible] is, of course, a very important conference for us here in Munich. I'm not sure your question is related to if we are going to make specific announcements there or.

No. No. Historically, we have seen sometimes clients wait for the BAU conference and then make the purchases instead of buying in Q4. So I'm just wondering, is that something.

Not really. I mean, not really will not have -- I mean, it is more for lead generation, which events, market presence. It's more a marketing tool. It's not like in the case of pure construction equipment where we are feeding orders in the trade show. That's not really the case. I mean a little bit, of course, there are some cases that it was more in the past. Now it's really more lead generation, marketing tool for growth. But it will not have impact on revenue. It will have impact on costs because it's an expensive event.

But we also have return [indiscernible].

But will have [indiscernible].

Okay. So at this point, there seems to be no further questions. That means I'd like to wrap up the Q&A session and hand it back to the speakers for some closing remarks.

Perfect. Thanks, everyone, for attending. So with that I'm looking forward to catching up with you soon. If you have any follow-up questions, so please do not hesitate to contact us. Let's conclude our call for today. Thanks again for attending. Hope to speak to you soon.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Thank you.