Bharat Electronics Ltd

NSE:BEL

Q1-2026 Earnings Call

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Bharat Electronics Q1 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Elara Securities Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Harshit Kapadia from Elara Securities Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you.

[Harshit Kapadia, analyst]

Thank you, Vishaka. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Elara Securities, we welcome you all for the Q1 FY '26 Conference Call of Bharat Electronics Limited. I take this opportunity to welcome the management of Bharat Electronics represented by Shri Manoj Jain, Chairman and Managing Director; Shri Damodar Bhattad S., Director of Finance and CFO; and Mr. Sreenivas S., Company Secretary, along with their team.

We will begin the call with a brief overview by the management followed by Q&A session. I'll now hand over the call to Manoj sir for his opening remarks. Over to you, sir.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. So these are the financial highlights for Q1 for the year '25, '26. Revenue from operations, it has increased to INR 4,417 crores up to Q1 as compared to INR 4,199 crores last year figure with a growth of 5.19%. Then profit before tax, it has increased to INR 1,289 crores up to Q1 as compared to INR 1,037 crores previous year Q1, with a growth of 24.28%. The profit after tax that also has increased to INR 969 crores in Q1 as compared to INR 776 previous year Q1, with a growth of 24.87%. The EBITDA also has increased to 29.86% up to Q1 as compared to 22.82% last year. Earnings per share has increased to INR 1.33 as compared to INR 1.06 and order book position as on 1/7/2025 is INR 74,859 crores. Of course, after that, I think almost around INR 2,600 crores more we have received order after 1st of July, so that you may be knowing through our different disclosures from time to time, including 1 disclosure happened today also of around INR 500-plus crores.

So these brief about the financial highlight of Q1 for Bharat Electronics.

Hello. Yes, ma'am you can take on questions.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Umesh Raut from Nomura.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

My first question is pertaining to our margin performance for the quarter. We have seen a very sharp increase in our margins on a year-on-year basis. So could you please share some insights behind these improvements? What was on the account of material savings, localization and [ utilization ] and how much was on the account of product mix?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. Overall margins, that is -- last year itself, we had almost 27%. It is slightly better than that, and it should be a good sign only, I should say. So that is there. So it is -- although last year first quarter, it was less, I agree. But overall, at the year-end, we had almost 27-plus percent was there. And this year guidance itself was 27%. So we are trying to adhere to the guidance what is given to you. So that is the first thing which I want to tell. DF, sir, you want to tell something more?

[Damodar Bhattad, executive]

As regards to gross margins, gross margins were better in the first quarter in the composition of products, which was more in-house manufacturing were there. So it was -- gross margins were better in the first quarter. As you rightly said, it is due to composition of product mix.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

Got it, sir. My second question is pertaining to large ticket ordering opportunities. So could you please update us time lines for these following programs? So update on QRSAM program. So where exactly now you are seeing this program kind of getting finalized in terms of order timing?

Second, with respect to MF-STAR program and is it kind of now getting finalized through shipyards? And third, basically on the project Kusha, which is kind of in the final stages of development now.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. QRSAM, as we referred to last time also, we have progressed a lot now. You may be knowing...

[Operator]

Sorry to interrupt you, sir. Hello. Actually, there is a echoing sound from your line. Can you please check it and also some disturbance on the background.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

We are also noticing that.

[Operator]

Yes.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Here, it is clear. But when we were speaking, we were seeing background noise, echo was coming from other side, I believe.

[Operator]

Just a second. Mr. Umesh, can you please check if there is anything around your side on the speaker phone.

[Harshit Kapadia, analyst]

I'm on mute.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

I think now it is better.

[Operator]

Yes.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Because when -- Madam, we were speaking voice was clear from both sides.

[Operator]

Okay. Okay. Sure.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Shall we go ahead, Madam?

[Operator]

Yes. Yes. Thank you.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

So QRSAM, as you may be knowing, the DAC approval was given on 3rd July 2025. So good progress has happened on that front. So now only the RFP has to be issued to us, which internally, there are some processes for that. We are constantly following up that. We are confident to get this order by February, March as of now also. It may not slip to Q1 of next year. We are confident we may get in the Q4 of this year itself QRSAM because the progress looks really good for us and DAC approval already has come.

Regarding MF-STAR and other subsystems, this was also told last time that our shipbuilders, they already got the order. So we have already started discussing with them about the configuration, final specs about the final bomb. So those activities are going on at a good speed. So we are hoping in next 3 to 6 months, we will get a considerable portion of subsystems order with us. So that is -- good progress is there, but this is having some 5, 6 different type of subsystems. So for each subsystem, configuration and other details, final details are being worked out. After that, we will have P&C, PNCs and then order placement by them.

So hoping that also Q3 and Q4, we are expecting major portion of that. Some small thing will spill over to Q1 of next year also, some small subsystems may go, but majority of the orders we are expecting Q3 and Q4. Q2, nothing may happen because still we are in that discussion and that mode only the P&C, PNC will take time. So typically, Q3 and Q4, we are expecting majority of the portion for this.

And for the Kusha, we'll be knowing if we are still in the developmental phase jointly with the DRDO. So DRDO, those development-related trials only are going on. So order conversion is as last time also told, it will take minimum 3 to 4 years. Until that time, we are developing systems and testing jointly with the DRDO, the subsystems and their performances. This is in brief about all the 3 systems.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

Got it, sir. If I can squeeze one more...

[Operator]

Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Umesh Actually, I would request you to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions. [Operator Instructions]

The next question is from the line of Amit Dixit from Goldman Sachs.

[Amit Dixit, analyst]

A couple of questions from my side. The first one is on Virupaksha. Now there has been a press release by a company indicating that they have received orders for exciter unit and certain other components for Virupaksha. So just wanted to understand, have we also received the order or in which phase we are? So that is my first question.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

No, this Virupaksha radar is for mainly Su-30. So there are various subsystems in that. We have got one order, developmental order from DRDO for that. And that order, we are in the stage of execution. But these are all development orders. So after development order and what you are referring also that company also has got developmental order for some 2 subsystems, we call it. So they have got some order, but main order is not gone to them. Main order is with -- I think if I'm not wrong, it is BEL and Astra Microwave, if I'm not wrong, for the main systems. So we are developing these prototypes. Once these prototypes are evaluated and tested, and I'm confident we will qualify, then only the production phase related or bulk orders will come. So right now, it is a prototype development jointly with DRDO for this Virupaksha radar.

[Amit Dixit, analyst]

The second question is essentially related to the emergency procurement. Now in the last con call, of course, fresh from the skirmish, we expected that there could be around -- the media articles indicated INR 40,000 crores to INR 50,000 crores of emergency procurement, but things appear to have cooled down a bit on that front. So what are you hearing? And some of these orders that we have got in the recent quarter, do they also pertain to emergency procurement or emergency procurement, if any, would be over and above this?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. That emergency procurement, overall, the activity started as last time told. We have received 1 or 2 orders already as part of emergency procurement. I think it was when we had given our public statement, there we have written also some of the items like LLLR radar we received and one more item, I think. So we have started getting emergency procurement-related orders also. As it was told last time, I think September is the cutoff as of now for them. So by next 2 months, we are expecting many more orders.

But overall, all these orders -- let me assure you, they will be part of our INR 27,000-plus crores of order book, which we wanted to get in this total financial year. We have already received more than INR 10,000 crores. So remaining INR 17,000 crores, definitely, the EP will help us in crossing that target.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Amit Anwani from PL Capital.

[Amit Anwani, analyst]

First question on the -- any impact of supply chain since this quarter, we did about 5% growth despite very strong order book. So first thing I wanted to understand anything which impacted the revenue because of the supply chain issue? And second, how are we dealing with the rare earth magnet ban, which came from China? Any exposure there? And how are we dealing with that situation?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes, your first point is correct that we only could register 5.19% growth. We were expecting around INR 200-plus crores further execution of the order. But last minute because of geopolitical situation, especially in Israel, Iran conflict, that affected our minimum INR 200-plus crores of the revenue. So because of that only, we thought we will be in double-digit growth. But because of this only, we fall short of that. Anyway, quarter 2, we will compensate for this. I am confident about that.

And regarding this rare earth magnets, it is not affecting us directly because this is mainly for EV and other segments. We are not right now in EV segment as a big player, we have only done some partial R&D in the EV segment for chargers and others. So it is not affecting us at all. The real earth magnet-related issue is not affecting BEL. It is mostly affecting automobile sector and other companies.

[Amit Anwani, analyst]

Sure. And sir, I wanted to understand on the current order book plus once we...

[Operator]

Sir, rejoin for other question. Please, you have to -- Madam has told two, you have already asked two. Please join the queue, and we are available till 4:00, please.

The next question is from the line of Harshit Patel from Equirus Securities.

[Harshit Patel, analyst]

Sir, my first question is, could you share some time lines for the Shatrughat and Samaghat electronic warfare system orders? Also how large these orders would be?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes. This Shatrughat and Samaghat order, good progress already has happened. We have received even RFP for one of the program because they are quite interrelated programs, Shatrughat and Samaghat. So we have got one Samaghat program. Already the RFP has been issued to us. So we are in the process of responding to that. Generally, in the public, we only go after we receive the order. So this intermediate stage, we generally don't tell. But anyway, to give you confidence that it has come to that stage. And following this, the next order will be for Shatrughat. RFP will be issued for Shatrughat. More or less similar configurations are there. One is for plane and desert, one is for mountain requirements type of thing. So the total order, I think for Shatrughat and Samaghat put together will be around INR 6,500 crores plus.

[Harshit Patel, analyst]

Okay. Understood, sir. Sir, my second question is on the next generation corvettes program. So you have highlighted that we would get the subsystems related orders worth INR 60 billion to INR 100 billion. So sir, what is the overall addressable electronics pie in this order, out of which we are getting this INR 60 billion to INR 100 billion? I'm just trying to understand what is the import content over here in this program?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

These all subsystems barring MF-STAR, I think, the MF-STAR, MRSAM only is having some 50%, 50% work share arrangement with our foreign partner. All other subsystems are totally homegrown. So they are, as such, only dependencies of ICs or some other component level thing, which manufacturing capacities are not there in India. But otherwise, from indigenous content point of view, they are totally homegrown. MF-STAR, MRSAM, typically, it is around 50%, 50% work share between us and foreign OEM, typically, roughly. So that is the total NGC program. So in the total program per se, I think around 60% to 70% minimum indigenous content will be there. It will be higher only. Exact value, I don't know. But roughly, you can assume around 70% indigenous content for the NGC program for BEL.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from JPMorgan.

[Atul Tiwari, analyst]

Sir, my question is slightly medium term. Your revenues are now almost touching on an annual basis, INR 300 billion. And except for some of these larger orders, your order inflows are about INR 270 billion. And even in this quarter, the order book was flattish to down slightly. So thinking forward 3, 4 years out, can we sustain 15% plus revenue growth from this large base of revenue?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Certainly, yes, 16% is not at all a challenge. We are actually internally aiming for 17.5% plus thing. As it was told also last time also, so many projects are in pipeline where we have done good investment at right time. Two programs are anyway QRSAM and Kusha, which you know, which are definite INR 30,000 crores, INR 40,000-plus crores. But in addition, also so many other missile programs, we are now DcPP partner for DRDO, like one of the missile, which was tested yesterday Pralay. It is BDL and BEL are the 2 DcPP. So that way, so many other missile programs, we are now confident that our share will increase in this program.

In addition to our main equipment of electronics variety in ships, submarines, air force, radars. So these are all programs, we have a good pipeline we are envisaging for at least next 3, 4 years for order inflow as well as for execution. The execution itself and right now, almost INR 80-plus thousand crores order book is already there with us today. And including QRSAM, a INR 40,000 crores to INR 50,000 crores are going to get orders now. So I don't see 16% or 17% will be a challenge for me. But definitely, it will not go below 15% that much, I can assure you. It will be between 15% to 17%, 17.5%, 18%, somewhere. We will try to stabilize around that type of a growth pattern based on the order inflow and type of projects where we are involved right now.

[Atul Tiwari, analyst]

Great, sir. And sir, last question is on margins. The margin performance has been very strong even in this quarter on a base of last year where the margins were 28% plus at EBITDA level. So can we see further margin expansion also over the next 2, 3 years beyond 28%?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Presently, we have guided for a margin of EBITDA of 27% this year, and we maintain that. Since the composition of product mix is different in every quarter, so it appears it's a little more this time. But overall, for the current year, we maintain it at 27%. And over a period of time also, 27% is a healthy figure. Anyway, next year, when we review our product mix, we'll come back with a revised figure, which may be left side or right side, I don't know right now, depending upon the overall product composition, but it will be around this range only. That much I can assure you.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang.

[Manish Ostwal, analyst]

I have two questions. One on the employee base side. So what is the current base of employee? And in terms of addition last 3, 4 years, how many people we added on the technical side? And how much money we are spending on the innovation R&D side on a yearly basis as a percentage of revenue?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. Our employee base was around 9,000, slightly less than 9,000, it was. This year, we -- as we have told earlier also, we will cross around 9,600 plus. And next year, we are planning crossing definitely 10,000 plus. So because overall -- and most of the employees, what we are adding now is in the technology front. Almost 70% plus of our new recruitment is going into R&D because we know we require more and more stronger R&D to take care of this new technology-related products like AI as a technology, ML as a technology, quantum as a technology, which are imbibe inside all these new developments. So we are adding good technical manpower. Almost 200 scientists also we are taking from premier institutes for our CRL as part of this activity.

So total, we put in R&D around 6.2% last time, it was turnover of our turnover on R&D. This year also, we are expecting a bit more than that only. So between 6% to 7% of our turnover, we wanted to invest on R&D. And as it was told last time also, total R&D investments this year will be between INR 1,600 crores plus only, between INR 1,600 crores to INR 1,800 crores somewhere we will plan. And it will not be below INR 1,600 crores, that much I can assure you, for doing this innovative R&D across all domains where BEL is operating.

[Manish Ostwal, analyst]

Yes. Second, sir, in terms of -- you talk about the technology like AI, ML and quantum technology. So in terms of modern warfare, where do you see the significant shift in terms of -- I mean, technological trend? And secondly, whether those technology we are having right now in India or we need to have ToT with other countries. So can you talk about slightly detail where we are in terms of technological aspect compared to the other players like in the U.S. or China?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Let me assure you, we are almost at par with these countries in this new technology domain of AI/ML. We are working closely with our defense forces to see that how this modern warfare can be benefited by this new technology of AI/ML. The main challenge there typically in AI/ML is the data. So how to get the right data to train ourselves. For that, we have done considerable work. We are having a very, very close tie-up with our defense forces. We have created an AI incubation center for Navy and Army at BEL, so that we user and start-ups all can work together and develop this technology, this cutting-edge technology well in time.

So we have done good investment. We have done a good infrastructure and a good framework for these technologies to be developed for the modern warfare. As you may be knowing all major C4I programs, which we have used even in the recent auction also were primarily from BEL, with support from DRDO as the initial technology provider, but now it is mainly spearheaded by BEL. Lot of AI/ML components were there in these systems, but many more are planned now as a value addition for these C4I programs based on AI/ML technology.

So we are confident we can do jointly with our start-up ecosystem. We can do jointly with our defense users in place, closely working with them. We can give this cutting-edge technological solutions related to modern warfare without any support from foreign countries. That much I can assure you.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Jyoti Gupta from Nirmal Bang.

[Jyoti Gupta, analyst]

Great set of numbers. I have two questions. One is relating to export component in revenue. How is that likely to look -- how is it going to look like in the next 5 years? Is it going to increase? And second is, we are talking about missiles, but LCA Mk1 where the CMD of HAL said that we would finish 5 LCAs, but it looks like we've received 2 engines in July, and we expect it to receive roughly around 12. And my sense is best case scenario, we should be complete with 7 LCAs. So what would be your contribution in terms of -- from the LCAs this year? How will that impact your margins or revenue from the HAL platforms?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. So regarding export, we are having consistently performance of almost 20% year-on-year growth on export front. And we are confident over a period of next 5 years, we try to reach around 10% of our turnover through exports. Right now, it is around 4% to 5%. So we are constantly putting efforts as overall company is growing at roughly 15% to 16%. But export, our internal target is more than 20%. So over a period of time, the export share to the overall turnover will steadily increase. And we wanted to reach in next 5 years around 10% of our turnover through exports. So that is our vision about the exports. We are going in the right direction with a reasonably good speed, I should say, on export front.

Regarding LCA, yes, there were some delays of the engine availability to HAL. But our components, our electronic components, which goes in these platforms because that goes and that is they use for their testing and making the total LCA ready for fitment for the engine. BEL side, we have not seen any challenges. We are regularly started supplying to HAL and then we continue to supply. So HAL finally supplying LCA to user is not impacting HAL per se. So our regular production to meet their expectation as per the contractual time lines, which between us and HAL was committed, we are more or less on target for that, and it is not going to affect our revenues per se.

[Jyoti Gupta, analyst]

But what could be the contribution of your revenues coming from HAL?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

HAL this year -- I think HAL, we are supplying LCA component and then some other helicopter components also. So those are there. Overall, I think -- we are planning around -- you can assume around INR 1,000-plus crores total put together for LCA and other helicopter programs of HAL. Typically, INR 1,000 crores plus/minus INR 100 crores maybe there because some few radars also we are supplying to them this year for their airport operations. So tentatively around INR 1,000-plus crores, you can assume.

[Jyoti Gupta, analyst]

Sir, one more question. Can I add on this?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Madam, please rejoin the queue.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Dipen Vakil from PhillipCapital.

[Dipen Vakil, analyst]

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, my first question is in the line of -- to understand a little bit of your order book. Sir, can you give us the breakup of the pending orders in your current order book? So major maybe 5, 10 contracts, which are large value in your order book?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Certainly. So as on today, as on 1st of July, technically, the major order book, largest is LRSAM program because you may be knowing, we received one order also this year also out of that. So around INR 5,000-plus crores is LRSAM program. Fuses is around INR 4,500-plus crores. Akash Army is the third one, which you may be knowing Akash Prime trial successfully was done recently -- nearly, which came in the media also. So that around INR 3,000 crores. BMP Upgrade around INR 3,000 crores, Ashwini and Arudhra around INR 2,500 crores, Shakti around INR 2,000 crores, Shakti EW System around INR 2,000 crores. So like that is there, top 10, 12 programs itself consisting of around INR 35,000 crores to INR 40,000 crores order book for us.

[Dipen Vakil, analyst]

Got it, sir. And I wanted to also understand, sir, recently, you received an air defense ATULYA radar from Indian Army. So what would be the kind of execution cycle for such order?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

I think it is around 3 years, if I'm not wrong, because already we have realized the first early production model also for that. And total 24 numbers of the radars we have to supply as part of this. Roughly 3 years, I can say. Exact details, I don't have. But typically, because there is no [ FOPM ] or other things here, we have to directly start supplying because we have already developed the prototype and are ready with the so-called production version now. So we hope to complete this in roughly 3 years' time frame.

[Dipen Vakil, analyst]

Got it, sir. So safe to understand that even electronic warfare suite for Mi-17 helicopters would execution cycle will also be 3 years?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

If I'm not wrong, it was 4 years [indiscernible] you are telling now. It is depending upon not only our production capacity. It is depending upon what user wants because user has to do is like an upgrade. They are already flying these helicopters. So when that will be available to us for these upgrades, so they have their own plan for next 3 to 4 years. So if I'm not wrong, it was almost 4 years. Almost than [indiscernible] that 3 more years. So total 4 years is our delivery schedule if I'm not wrong about that. But that is mainly because of the overall planning jointly between us and Air Force. Based on that, this schedule was worked out, and we are on time for supplying them these subsystems.

[S. Sreenivas, executive]

See, all these are factored in, in our -- giving our execution programs. Whatever we are telling is all factored in, in our execution programs, whatever we are projecting.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Hardik Rawat from IIFL Capital.

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

Congratulations team on a very strong set of numbers. My first question is building on the question of the order book constitution, which are the major -- considering our guidance, conservative guidance of 15%, roughly INR 22,000 crores of balance revenue to come in the next 9 months, what will be the major programs that will contribute to this?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Just one major order to be received or order to be executed in next 9 months. What was your question?

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

Orders to be executed, sir.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Orders to be executed, then it's okay. So LRSAM, of course, always tops for us. So LRSAM is around INR 3,000 crores we are hoping to execute this year. HimShakti is another big program where we are going to realize revenue around INR 1,700-plus crores. Akash Army around INR 1,300 crores, D-29 LRU for LCA, BSF and Arudhra, around INR 600 crores to INR 800 crores each. And then links you to IACCS, Shakti, EW, BMP 2 upgrade, around INR 500-plus crores. And then remaining are smaller, smaller things. So overall, we have planned totally how we are going to execute in next 3 quarters left over to achieve this growth of at least 15% for this year.

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

Got it, sir. That's very helpful. One last question would be with regards to the margins front. Now we have seen a sharp expansion in the operating margins, which have largely been led by the gross margins. Yet our other expenses have grown as a percentage of sales by roughly 215 bps to 9.5 percentage. Any specific reason because of this reason for this jump as a percentage of sales? Have we made any additional provisioning this quarter?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes, regular provisioning will be a part of whatever we need to do at that particular point of time depending on the delivery schedule of products. But in certain cases, we get the DD extension without LDOs, without the penalties also. So we are able to reverse. So this provisioning is there as a part of other expenses. But that is a regular feature, we do. But to a full extent that we have to do.

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

Yes. So nothing out of the ordinary.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Andre from Cogito Advisers. [Technical Difficulty]

The next question is from the line of Ajinkya Jadhav from KRIIS Portfolio.

[Ajinkya Jadhav, analyst]

Just wanted to ask like are we into the sonar system? Like have we participated in the tender for the ALTAS sonar?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Sonar, I think we are the largest supplier of sonars and we are the trusted partner for NPOL, who is the main designer for sonars in India. So we have associated ourselves with them since beginning. And we are doing some proactive investments also jointly with them on sonars. We have our own -- some subsystems development and indigenization program also for sonars like site scan sonar and others. We are planning to have an export worthy version of sonar also. So overall, I think in the sonar front, we are a good technology provider for our defense forces. And we are doing now some more value addition in that by adding this AI/ML type of technologies or integrating it for larger strategic platforms.

So as such, I don't see any issue of changing our role for that. We are going to further excel only in this domain. We are hiring some more advisers in this domain to see that this is strong position in the sonar development, we continue to maintain. And we are hardly depending on foreign countries from the sonar perspective, although a few foreign origin sonars are there, but they came as part of the platform earlier itself. Any new sonar per se, I doubt whether now we are importing.

[Ajinkya Jadhav, analyst]

Yes. Great to know about that. And the second question is regarding that, what is the sales mix for -- between, you can say, the component assembly and the product in our total sales?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

The thing is per se, we are making products only. As part of the products, we do the assembly, okay? The per se assembly, we don't take as a business case, okay? So we generally sell modules, some modules, systems or systems of systems. Same thing is around components per se, components direct business because we have a component foundry also, but that project business is very, very minimal because that is only for some strategic ISRO and other requirements only. That is very, very insignificant, I should say, as part of the business. It is more of a strategic in nature presently. So presently, our sales mix is mainly of products and solutions.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Karan Gupta from Asit C Mehta.

[Karan Gupta, analyst]

So I just joined a bit late. So I just missed the commentary. One question regarding revenue and margin side. So what's the product mix change has happened kind of 4%, 5% of the revenue growth this quarter. On the margin side, the gross margin improvement is around 9% to 10%. So what's the product mix that's changed? And you've also said something on the more you are doing in-house manufacturing of some of the components which was your earlier outsourcing. So what's the impact of in future, in-house manufacturing and the product mix on the margin? I mean if you can just quantify if we are doing more in-house manufacturing so how it will impact positively on the margin side?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. Let me again clarify. I think last time also we told it is not in-house manufacturing. It is in-house design or indigenization, which as a drive we are doing. Manufacturing, we do based on the case-to-case basis. Typically, we involve our MSME and other partners more and more. Wherever they are available and their quality output is insured, we generally take from them only. When we are not finding any MSME partner for doing manufacturing those items only we do in-house manufacturing. Otherwise, our motto and vision is to promote our MSME partners and take their help as and when required as much as possible. But I was mentioning about in-house design and indigenous designs. So we are doing more and more efforts for indigenization. So indigenization is a bit different means designing in India, but manufacturing in BEL or outside BEL that we see on case-to-case basis. And as I told, wherever possible, if any vendor is there, MSME vendor is there, we firstly opt to that only.

And that only will give us actually more and more margins because definitely, when we involve our MSME vendor ecobase, it will be overall beneficial for them and for us also. Only thing we have to ensure is the quality and timeliness of the deliveries. That we go through a rigorous process of evaluating our vendor base. And based on that only we select them. But once we select, we really do hand holding and see that they also prosper and we also prosper. So that is the -- about this in-house manufacturing/in-house design front.

The second point you told about revenue. Yes, this year, first quarter, we had got almost 5% only as our revenue growth, mainly around INR 200-plus crores, which we thought we will realize the sales by June because of geopolitical situation, especially in Israel-Iran conflict. Some of the critical components from Israel could not come. And because of that, we could not achieve, otherwise our target was at least 10% plus in the first quarter itself. Overall, anyway, definitely, we will cross 15%. But in the first quarter itself, we were having our internal target of 10-plus percent. But we fall short of this because of this last minute so-called surprises for us. And that is a regular feature nowadays knowing the geopolitical situation around the world.

But sometimes, some particular item may affect us a bit more in 1 quarter, next quarter, it will compensate because we have overall a very, very large product mix. So this large product mix will not impact us too much like there also it was around INR 200 crores impact only was there, which definitely I'm confident they will compensate in quarter 2. And overall, margin-wise, as it was told earlier also, our product mix is so large we can't quantify whether this product mix at what margin will come with this product mix, average it out. And overall, what guidance we have given will be around that only will be our margins. It will not affect too much because of so-called geopolitical situations or because of the product mix for 1 particular month, et cetera.

[Karan Gupta, analyst]

Okay. Fair enough. Second one on anything we are doing with the live simulation we are providing services to maybe export side or domestically for some companies, live simulation?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Live simulation? The simulator business we are having. Simulators, we are supplying -- exporting also now to some of the countries. And definitely, in India, large complex systems and solutions related to Radar or missile segment, we are developing advanced simulators for our Indian needs. But we found a lot of export opportunities, and we have exported in the recent past, also some 2, 3 good leads, we have exported also. And we are doing marketing for our simulator business further in many more countries.

So we are confident that the simulator business is really great growing for us and good growth prospectives are there in this business. We are putting some more manpower also in this particular segment and then seeing that some of the large programs because anyway you will be knowing all large programs require the high-end simulator also. So we wanted to develop those simulators well in time itself so that it can be used while supplying the equipment itself. The simulators can be used for good training from day 1 itself. So we are working for that.

[Karan Gupta, analyst]

So part of the business is the simulator business?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

No, no, no. Simulator as a business will be around maybe 2% to 3% of our total business, less than 5% definitely. One of our SBU is primarily doing that business and 2 of our R&D houses are supporting them. So out of total 29 SBUs actually, 1 SBU is more focused towards simulator and 1 more SBU is partially supporting them. So you can see the overall business also depends upon how many SBUs are working. It's around, you can say, roughly 2% of our business.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Nikhil Purohit from Fident Asset Management.

[Nikhil Purohit, analyst]

Just 2 questions. So what was -- I joined the call a little late. What is the defense versus non-defense ratio?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Again, typically, defense, non-defense, it's 88% to 90% and 10% is roughly nondefense, which is our typical figure.

[Nikhil Purohit, analyst]

Got it. Okay. And does our exports order inflow guidance remain intact?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes, yes, yes. We are confident. We are confident of whatever target we have given around INR 120-plus million. We are confident we will have that. Good progress already has been done, although we don't give a direct breakup of how much export order we have received. Quarter-to-quarter, we don't give that, we give our consolidated figures only. But in this order, what we have received right now also there is some portion of export orders also. And we are confident we will meet our guidance on export front.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Umesh Raut from Nomura.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

The first question is, sir, pertaining to increase -- possible increase in employee cost on the account of 8th Pay Commission now, specifically in FY '28. Because I think if I look at early assessment of what they are recommending. I think it is about closer to 3x kind of increase in basic pay. So any assessment, early assessment, what kind of increase we can expect in case of employee cost?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

I think that time also -- last time also we indirectly hinted to you. This 8th Pay Commission things are not directly relevant for us, although indirectly, it will control our PRC. There will be a separate pay revision committee, which will be constituted by government for PSUs. That will get some inputs from this 8th Pay Commission, but it will not be exactly same. And in the PRC, they give a lot of flexibility to PSUs to decide based on their profitability and viability of from financial point of view. So at that time, we can see definitely we want to give the best to our employees. But I don't see any big challenge in the FY '28 for that. We will start doing some small provisioning from '27 and onwards and see that, but I don't think it is going to impact us too much because our overall growth -- turnover growth have been compensated for this small increase in employee cost. That much I can assure you.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

Got it, sir. And sir, my second question, if I look at our services business, I think there also, we have set up now new SBU related to SaaS business especially in the nondefense area as well, but I think our service business contribution in overall turnover is still at about closer to 10%, 11%. And looking at our defense installed base has been now, it looks like we have a sizable exposure towards the installed base and indigenization is also going up. So how do you think this services turnover as a percentage of total revenue for you to go up in medium to longer term?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

You have told a 10% to 11% is our services sector.

[Operator]

Sorry to disturb you sir. Again, your line is echoing, there's an echo in your line.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

That is Madam on the Nomura side, I believe. They have to mute. shall I go ahead?

[Operator]

Yes, please go ahead.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes. So 10% to 11%, as you have told, we are trying to increase it to 13%, 14% over the period of next 2 years. So definitely slightly increase will be there in the services because some of the new areas also now we are pursuing the services, especially 1 order which we have received even today, whatever we have given in public domain data related to financial services-related business by our corporate SBU, we have got a good order. So these orders of nondefense variety also will increase. So we will have 3% to 4% overall increase in our overall product mix because of services. So we are expecting 10%, 11% will become 13% to 15% over a period of time.

[Umesh Raut, analyst]

Got it. Sir, just 1 clarification. As a part of defense offset contracts, does services come under as more of a potential opportunity for exports?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Everything can come under opportunity for export. But definitely, right now, we are not getting any big leads of the services variety under offset. Under offset typically is a contract manufacturing type of thing or some of the subsystems, which we have to supply to them as B&E, et cetera. The services per se and offset these 2 are not gelling together as of now. But definitely, there is a scope.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Harshit Patel.

[Harshit Patel, analyst]

Sir, we had received an order work close to INR 2,000 crores from HAL for the electronics LRUs for LCA Mark 1A.

[Operator]

Sorry to disturb you, sir. There is a noise in your background of whistling.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes, some noise is there echo, but we will manage. And when we speak at the time, I think he has to mute.

[Harshit Patel, analyst]

Sure, sir. We'll do that. Sir, we had received an order worth INR 2,000 crores from HAL for the electronics LRUs for the first 83 numbers of the LCA Mark 1A program. How large could be the follow-on order for the subsequent 97 numbers, how much more wallet share we will take with the enhanced offerings in this upcoming order?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

It will be more or less in that order of 83 to 97 and yearly escalations. HAL cannot give us more than that. So it will be because quantity to quantity. And typically, it is year-on-year escalation. So that will be there. So you can extrapolate how much it will be, roughly, it will be around INR 3,000 crores, I can say, including escalations. Roughly INR 3,000 crores plus/minus, we have to sit across with HAL and do smart negotiations. That only will tell us what is the final figure. And as and when we finalize that contract, we will definitely intimate to all of you. But you can assume ballpark figure of roughly INR 3,000 plus/minus few hundred crores here and there.

[Harshit Patel, analyst]

Sir, I was asking from the point of view that won't we be supplying many more subsystems vis-a-vis what we are supplying right now? For example, the Uttam AESA radar would be part of our offerings when we'll go to this additional 97 numbers, there could be much more offerings on the electronic warfare subsystems as well. So we will be supplying the same subsystems or we will increase our scope as well in this newer order?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

You have rightly pointed out. What I was referring you because you told electronic subsystems, which we have supplied for 83. So for 97 we will supply all those same. But of course, EW and Radar are the 2 new subsystems which is still not finalized configuration or minor details of that. And there are -- I think in both of them, there are 2 partners. So we don't know who will become L1 in that. So we are only bidding but not confident whether we will get the full order. So maybe for those EW and Radar there is a 50% probability, I should say. Although as management, I should be confident about 100, but I know my competitor also would like to have.

And the second thing, HAL may decide to give it to L1 and L2 because many times, when systems are complex and time lines are crucial, they split the order between L1 and L2. So right now, EW and Radar related, those discussions or those draft RFPs or contract discussions have not started with HAL. So I can't quantify right now what type of terms and conditions they are going to write for that. Once they give us some draft RFP, then I can come out with a more revised figure for this EW and Radar. Right now, I have excluded EW and Radar from that and only the other electronic subsystems around 11 to 16 type of subsystems, which we are supplying for them. So those subsystems only, I told order value of around plus/minus INR 3,000 plus minus few hundred crores.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Darshan Parmar from Jefferies.

[Darshan Parmar, analyst]

Congrats on good set of numbers. Most of my questions are answered. I just had 1 question regarding the potential opportunity on the drone front. If you could give some sense on that, please?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Drones per se. We are some 4, 5 major leads where we are working on drones. One of the lead anyway is the Archer UAV for which some trial and other evaluations are going on and immediately completing that, we are expecting a big order on Archer UAV. But in addition, there is a loitering ammunition, there is a logistic drone and there is a male variety of drone requirement, which has come, we are pursuing these 3, 4 more opportunities of drones. Male and Archer are definitely leads for us. So we are confident by year-end, at least 1 of the orders we may get out of these 4, 5 leads before this.

And the next 2 to 3 years, definitely, some big orders we will expect from that. But presently, I don't have a quantified figures about that because these all are in different stages of evaluation only. They have not come to a contract finalization stage where I can clearly give you some numbers, but definitely drone and drone warfare and anti-drones, these are the area of importance for BEL. We are committed for this particular segment because we know we can give very good solutions to our defense forces in this segment.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Girish from MS.

[Girish Achhipalia, analyst]

Just a couple of questions. Firstly, on the order book, what portion of the order book of INR 75,000 crores that you have today, is recognizable as revenue beyond FY '27 as in the contractual obligations and your execution, which is going to be beyond FY '27, whether it is FY '28 or '29, if you can quantify that?

And the second question I had was on the order book on -- currently, how much of it is nomination versus competitive bid? Those 2 are the questions.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

So order book out of this next 2 years only majority of the orders we are going to execute. Only some 2, 3 big programs like fuses is there, which is there for next 10 years actually, and EW systems solutions are typically for around 4 to 5 years delivery schedule. So these are only a little bit larger. So more than 3 years out of this order book, around INR 14,000 crores is there for more than 3 years. Remaining all are within 3 years executable.

And regarding nomination and the competitive bidding, the ratio is around 90% plus/minus to 10% 90-10, we can say roughly. 90% nomination, 10% competition as of now.

[Girish Achhipalia, analyst]

And this is -- competition is including the nondefense or are you talking only about defense, sir? 90-10 ratio?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Put together. Even some of the nondefense also, we have got a nomination. It is not that only defense we get on nomination. Based on our -- acquired across a number of years some of the nomination projects we have got like this platform screen door, which we have got so many other projects are there on non-defense also. So this mix is for both defense and nondefense, both.

[Girish Achhipalia, analyst]

Just like you said, 3 years plus is INR 14,000 crores. 2 years plus would be how much, sir? Would it be like INR 25,000-odd crores or any ballpark number here?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Yes. 2 to 3 years is around INR 8,000 crore plus. So 8 plus 14 around INR 22,000 cores, INR 23,000 crores is 2 years plus.

[Unknown Executive]

We can have 1 last question.

[Operator]

Okay. The next question is from the line of Hardik Rawat from IIFL Capital.

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

So quick questions. Firstly, with regards to the exports opportunity, sir, which are some of the key projects that BEL has developed, which are finding good traction in the export markets?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

The thing is for us all our radars, missiles, communication systems, software solutions, all are there in our export-related portfolio for us, drones and anti-drones, especially anti-drone systems also lot of opportunities are existing right now. And 1 new area now in the C4I solutions. After Op Sindoor, you might have seen so many of our C4I solutions were time tested. So now many of the countries are coming towards us for giving a customized solution for them for the C4I.

In addition, our contract manufacturing related to TR modules and LV RACS, which are led those types of things also are increasing for us. So there is a good set of products and solutions across almost all domains where BEL is working. So good export leads are there right now. And that's why we are confident we will achieve whatsoever we have given guidance at the end of the year, we are going to achieve that. So these products are almost all major areas of operation of BEL.

[Hardik Rawat, analyst]

Got it, sir. And lastly, sir, what would be the CapEx figure for FY '26?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

CapEx figure is INR 1,000-plus crores, we are going to have this time INR 1,000 crores plus only. It cannot be less than that. That is we are committed this year because we are having large expansion in other plants already are underway and a lot of capital items are required for our new generation test instruments and others. So overall, put together, we have done good planning for that, and we are confident that we will definitely cross INR 1,000 crores.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Harshit Kapadia for closing comments. Please go ahead.

[Harshit Kapadia, analyst]

Thank you, Vishaka. We would like to thank Manoj sir, Damodar sir as well as Sreenivas sir for giving us an opportunity to host this call. Any closing remarks for the investor community, sir?

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Okay. The same is like future outlook for FY '25, '26 we are maintaining all those parameters. I will just repeat that revenue growth more than 15%, EBITDA margin more than 27%, order inflow of INR 27,000-plus crores excluding QRSAM, if QRSAM comes, which we are still confident for Q4. If it comes, then it will be additional INR 30,000 plus crore. R&D investment as it was committed, it will be INR 1,600-plus crores only. CapEx, INR 1,000-plus crores and export $120-plus million. So these are our future outlook for '25, '26 and we are confident of achieving this.

[Operator]

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Elara Securities Private Limited and Bharat Electronics, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.

[Manoj Jain, executive]

Thank you all.

[Damodar Bhattad, executive]

Thank you.